Social Dominance Hierarchy: Debunking the Myth of the Alpha Male

Sep 16, 2022 | Season 3

Everybody wants to be top dog, but the Social Dominance Hierarchy is a lot more nuanced than the Alpha/Beta framework we were taught. Success means teaming with players all across the personality spectrum and we all shift in and out of different roles, so how do we navigate this complex world of Gammas and Deltas?

This week the Black in the Middle crew debunks the myth of the Alpha Male (and gives the Beta his come up) while trying to answer the age-old question, ‘What kind of man are you?’

Hosts & Guests

Travis Brown

Herman Watson

Tim McCoy

Black in the Middle Podcast episode gems

Social Dominance Hierarchy: Debunking the Myth of the Alpha Male

00:02:38 “I’m like, man, I’ve been an alpha. I’ve probably been all of these at some point in my life, or simultaneously, like, I can be really confident in the work that I’m putting out while being less confident in how I’m parenting.” ~Herman 

 

00:02:55 “I was gonna say, in a weird way, like, I don’t think Donald Trump is an alpha, but he plays that role.” ~Herman

 

00:03:55 “And today we are going to put an exclamation point on masculinity. We’re going to talk about social dominance hierarchy, aka the alpha male versus the beta male. And everything in between.” ~Tim

 

00:04:59 “So I thought This is important because most people only know alpha and beta. And over the past few years, probably, all throughout time, there’s been like this kind of push and pull on what is what. But recently, people really like to come down on betas. But as I’ve done some research and reading, I’m like, Man, that is a beta is not what they think. Yeah, in a lot of capacity. So I’m like, that’s not necessarily a bad thing. And then as I was doing even further, I’m like, Oh, snap, there’s even more not too dissimilar from what we would do in a branding exercise. So going down the list, there’s also sigma, Delta, Gamma, and Omega.” ~Herman 

 

00:07:36 “You know, you know, what I’m struggling with, though. And we talked about this in pre-production. I’m not picturing. Like, I’m looking at my life, and the people that come to mind alpha or beta are women.” ~Tim

 

00:09:58 “So the delta you will get back because it’s like an everyman persona.” ~Herman

 

00:12:31 “So, if we want to be better people towards one another, we need to understand what we’re going through and what we’re trying to do, right.” ~Herman

 

00:12:37 “Like, you might need to act like the Alpha without having all the Alpha care, like, I have led before, and I’ve been very successful in leading a big team. But I never called myself a boss. You know, it just wasn’t my thing.” ~Herman 

 

00:12:58 “I lead by example. And sometimes you lead by following, right? Like, you just have to take a back seat and let someone else who may be better or faster or stronger, or maybe their opportunity be in the limelight. And I run my business like that.” ~Tim

 

00:14:17 “I mean, it’s the same, like if I think about, like, my college, friends, and then my high school friends, but then like, even different groups within those, you know, those experiences. I played a different role. You know, and now I’m trying  to think, why?” ~Tim

 

00:14:43 “I think it’s because it’s a team, it’s a unit. So, therefore, you know, different things are necessary to do certain things.” ~Travis 

 

00:15:46 “ It’s an interesting concept because it transcends relationships, friendships, family, and work. Like they’re all it’s just like this influx.” ~Herman

 

00:16:51 “Man, we got a group chat full of betas, bro. Nobody makes a decision.” ~Tim

 

00:18:14 “I am the honey. They’ll come.” ~Travis 

 

00:18:41 “Started as an alpha. I was striving to be an alpha. I wanted to be an alpha, I ended up being a delta.” ~Tim

 

00:18:52 “I read the book that I gave you rocket fuel. And it really talks about business in this capacity of being successful, you have to have two things, a visionary, and an integrator.” ~Herman

 

00:19:04 “In an alpha-beta kind of world, that visionary, a lot of visionaries are out here running companies that fail because they don’t have the hypothetically beta personality to have to understand those that want them to be successful.” ~Herman 

 

00:19:25 “What they recommend for entrepreneurs is having that second in command to complement one another because a lot of times alphas will fail without that. And betas thrive there too.” ~Herman 

 

00:21:11 “I feel like a lot of people that follow Trump would consider themselves all alpha males. But in reality, to follow, you are a true beta. And I think that it’s okay that you are okay with that.” ~Herman 

 

00:20:28 “I mean, is alpha singular? Because, there’s nothing that says in the definition that this one is the creme de la creme, the top of the pyramid at all times.” ~Travis 

 

00:22:23 “I just don’t see it as a singular deal, like I just don’t see it as, if I’m not the top dog, then I’m not an alpha. For instance, we have collaborative efforts. So you have, opportunity, sometimes where it’s a collaboration, and so you have alphas from different arenas sitting down. And you can have four alphas, taking 25% of the responsibility on something.” ~Travis 

 

00:23:21 “But I mean, I think it’s possible that you have, like Black Panther, you have four tribes there at the same time, and you’re sitting there and making the weighing out decisions.” ~Travis 

 

00:23:53 “That person might not be a beta next year, or that person might not be a gamma next year, or whatever it is, it’s the things that happen in life that make people ebb and flow in these situations.” ~Herman

 

00:25:00 “If you can understand where somebody’s default logic is, it can help you better communicate work with a partner or with an individual.” ~Travis

00:33:02 “It is just as much about how you feel about yourself. The key component, though, is how you make others feel about you.” ~Travis

 

00:33:21 “It’s about you possessing the traits and demonstrating those things in a way that yields the results that you’re trying to get.” ~Travis 

 

00:35:10 “That’s the point of this episode, right is to debunk the myth of the beta.” ~Tim

 

00:36:46 “We know exactly that’s why it’s a hard decision because you have other people involved in that decision-making.” ~Tim

 

00:37:35 “I think I am a true sigma. I am different. I don’t really conform. I’m gonna do my own thing.” ~Herman

 

00:38:08 “You follow all the rules as long as it’s not the DMV.” ~Travis 

 

00:42:30 “ I think I’m an alpha. I’m in an alpha male role, you know, with the business. I think that as the male of the household, I’m doing air quotes, and I am the Alpha there. But by no means do I make the majority of the decisions that happen under my roof.” ~Tim

 

00:43:43 “He’s the first alpha to say sorry.” ~Herman 

 

00:44:05 “I think I am probably 50% Alpha 50% Delta” ~Tim

 

00:44:15 “This is why it’s very confusing because I see myself as a delta in relationships. I don’t see myself as a delta at all anywhere close to in my work life.” ~Herman

 

00:44:31 “I think that there’s definitely a little bit of peace in several categories for me. I probably say my number one after really reading is probably beta. And then I think after that it’s probably secondarily gamma.” ~Travis

 

00:44:53 “So, let’s take the quiz, and then we’ll post the results on social and we’ll see if we are in lockstep with our predictions.” ~Tim

 

00:45:03 “I’m not socially awkward.” ~Travis

 

00:45:30 “I have several different white friend groups, integrated groups, and then, you know, black groups. I play a different role in those for most of the groups that are majority white, I play the alpha male in friend groups.” ~Tim 

 

00:45:53 “Do you play that? Or are you kind of placed there because all eyes are already going to be on you?” ~Herman

 

00:46:10 “But then you take the incidence of okay, now I’m fast forwarding to, you know, Florida a&m and I’m at a school of 99.8% black. I’m as beta as they come.” ~Tim

 

00:51:58 “I think the point of this episode is to be self-aware. To be able to identify where you are, and what traits you have, I don’t think anyone is one thing absolute. But if you understand that you can be, you know, self-aware about what you are, and in different scenarios, then you can understand the dynamics and how you play well with others.” ~Tim

 

00:52:26 “When you look at society, and how horrible we are getting along with one another. Like we said 1000 times people are not coming out of the pandemic well. And I think that’s because all these misguided personality traits are in so much conflict like everybody thinks they’re an alpha or everybody doesn’t want to be a beta. But I’m like, you’re all of the things simultaneously know what they are. And if you’re going through something, if you lost a job, but you’re still giving off Alpha energy, like that, doesn’t mesh that’s going to butt up to somebody, and it’s creating conflict. And I feel like maybe this isn’t the overarching thing that if everybody understood this entire hierarchy, everything would be better. That’s not what I’m saying. But it could reduce some friction. Where friction does not need to exist.

 

00:53:56 “The internet and the content that people consume, can infect your mind.” ~Tim

 

00:54:51 “I know a couple of people who go a lot for 14 likes. They put a lot of energy out there for six likes.” ~Travis 

 

01:05:33 “That’s because society moved on from that type of leadership. That was like leadership from the 40s and 50s. It’s this cutthroat type of leadership.” ~Herman

 

01:07:42 “Whenever things like this happen, the fear of God takes its toll. And you see, leaders change, and people react differently because of this alpha male energy at the top. And if that alpha male energy is prioritized on certain things, then you’re going to see people conform to it for survival. It’s a brand new culture.” ~Travis

 

01:08:26 “It’s a shift from the executive, you know, the executive level. And when the problem with a lot of companies is executives will shift, and pivot hard and fast. It’s tough for localized levels to pivot so quickly because once they pivot, there are real-life results for the people who are actually accomplishing the tasks. And there’s a significant lag and, so I’ve been in companies before, and I’m in one now that’s trying to balance all that.” ~Travis 

 

01:10:25 “Leadership is always about connecting needs and wants. And it’s about, you know, if I need to get this out of you, I have to match that with what you want out of your situation. And we have to be able to match that to a common goal.” ~Travis 

 

01:10:56 “True leadership is getting the most out of your people.” ~Travis 

 

01:11:13 “We had a team here, if you’re the leader, who I think you should be, you should be able to get some out of that talent. Now, if they’re truly incompetent, then you, manage that out. But that’s not the case. You know, you’re just changing parts to change parts. And that’s not good Alpha energy.” ~Travis 

 

01:12:59 “And maybe that’s why I saw myself as a sigma because my pathway to where I am was so nontraditional, right, like I wanted to do basically what I’m doing and I fucking feel like I went through everything. Good, bad, indifferent, and crazy to get there.” ~Herman 

 

01:14:28 “I think that the moral of the story is to be self-aware, understand it, and then you know, share it with people around you. Figure out how to work better and play well together and all that good stuff.” ~Tim 

 

01:14:49 “And my thing just to kind of go on would be to learn what it is about people and how you can better support them by understanding the change that might happen as people go through certain changes.” ~Herman 

 

Toggle for full episode transcript »

Herman 0:01
Because I don’t know really where to start. So like, unless you get because I’m like if you’re introducing, like, why

Tim 0:07
are you still in pre-production?

Herman 0:10
Like, why does this matter? Plus it’s kind of out of order, because I’m like, I have some questions here. But I think the funnier questions are gonna happen throughout. Because I think that there are some examples where you would be an alpha, and I think they’re examples where you definitely wouldn’t be

Unknown Speaker 0:25
for Yeah.

Herman 0:29
We can start with production right now. So it’s all the homies lined up. All of us, me, you that guy? Keegan, Pierre, right, a threat comes walking towards our whole group, and we just cracking jokes. I know, I’m not jumping out there to stop the threat from coming. That is not Alpha energy. Who would? Who would be the first to jump out there to protect the group here?

Travis 0:55
Right. Pierre would be the first one to jump and say something.

Tim 0:57
Yeah, maybe not for protection. But just for something.

Herman 1:00
Yeah. You know, saying something like, right. Yeah. Why wouldn’t you? That’s not an alpha behavior to not protect the group.

Tim 1:08
Yeah, I mean, that’s it. That’s an interesting scenario.

Herman 1:13
But it is a real scenario because the dominance hierarchy is based off, but just because you’re the first

Tim 1:17
to jump out doesn’t mean you wouldn’t be the one that so like, you could be the dominant male. And that would ever kind of whichever one that is.

Herman 1:24
Well, I mean, depending on how strong that alpha trait may be, right? Like it’s an eight, right? Like some level, it’s an eight to protect? Well, I’m going to be thinking about what is the

Tim 1:33
highest you’re going through, you’re going through actual

Herman 1:36
Yeah, my bad. All right. All right. All right. So

Tim 1:38
the incident cadence will be can we talk about different male archetypes? What to look for in red flags? How does social dominance hierarchy play out in the middle? How time and experience can move people through different areas of the hierarchy or structure? What are the labels? How do they play out in work, relationships, and life?

Herman 2:00
So the labels are the actual naming conventions? Which one

Tim 2:03
do you think you are? And then what are the common misconceptions? Okay, so. So when we talk about common misconceptions, I mean, I’m a pretty smart dude, I’ve never heard of any of these except for alpha beta. So there wouldn’t be any misconceptions. Except for maybe alpha and beta. Exactly. But let’s just focus on that question. Yeah. And then I think that the exciting part is to figure out who we are, but also to uncover these other

Herman 2:33
right. archetypes, and how they blend and how, again, going back to the time thing, I’m like, man, I’ve been an alpha I’ve been I’ve been probably all of these at some point in my life, or simultaneously, like, I can be confident in the work that I’m putting out while being less confident in how I’m parenting. You know, I’m saying yeah,

Tim 2:50
okay. Okay.

Herman 2:55
I was gonna say, weirdly, like, I don’t think Donald Trump is an alpha, but he plays that role. Well, but at the same time, every other alpha male underneath

Tim 3:05
going into the sign.

Travis 3:07
Save some cards,

Herman 3:08
man. All right. I’m just saying,

Tim 3:11
Alright, who’s scared to talk to her under threat? Alright, so these are your scenarios answering to your boss or leading as a boss.

Herman 3:21
That’s where you murder right?

Tim 3:23
Okay, why does any of this matter? Okay, all right. Let’s just get into it.

Herman 3:29
Let’s, and we’re black with an alright, never mind. I was trying to fuck that.

Tim 3:34
Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Last few.

Herman 3:37
enjoy myself. Alpha humor. Laugh louder, too. All right, man. Grow up.

Tim 3:49
It’s kind of fun. All right, we are back. These are your hosts Tim Travis Herman. And today we are going to put an exclamation point on masculinity. We’re going to talk about social dominance hierarchy, aka the alpha male versus the beta male. And everything in between.

Travis 4:10
But like, I need to beat my chest right now.

Tim 4:14
This might be some extra loud noises like, Herman might flip a table during this episode.

Herman 4:26
I get really mad.

Tim 4:28
If a fight breaks out, I’m playing

Herman 4:30
T ball. You know karate man.

Travis 4:34
Yeah. Yeah, he’s, he’s ready.

Tim 4:38
If it breaks out. We’re just gonna shoulder we’re just gonna keep it rolling. Well,

Herman 4:41
man has been doing it.

Travis 4:43
Yeah, man. I just gotta use Merici

Tim 4:45
days a week. I was gonna use some speed. All right. So Herman. Please introduce to the listeners, the social dominance hierarchy that we’re going to talk about

Herman 4:57
today. All right, perfect. So I thought This is important because most people only know about alpha and beta. And over the past few years, probably, throughout time, there’s been like this kind of push and pull on what is what. But recently, people like to come down on betas. But as I’ve done some research and reading, I’m like, Man, that is a beta is not what they think. Yeah, in a lot of capacity. So I’m like, that’s not necessarily a bad thing. And then as I was doing even further, I’m like, Oh, snap, there’s even more not too dissimilar from what we would do in a branding exercise. So going down the list, there’s also sigma, Delta, Gamma, and Omega. And

Travis 5:33
oh, there it only makes sense because there are like 52 genders. So there’s got to be like 20 different types of men.

Herman 5:41
Yes. But it also, it’s interesting. Because it plays out in a really weird way. And everybody brings something to the table. So I don’t know if we want to jump into exactly what they are. But I think that most people have this perception that we’ve been a minute episode on the alpha. And I said, most alphas are fake alphas. But that was also looking at alphas is like this toxic kind of thing. But I’m like, there are traits in there that it’s just not that. So

Tim 6:07
yeah. Yeah. Okay, so let’s start with the easy one, the alpha, what are the traits of anathema, so actual traits?

Herman 6:14
And it’s so weird, because it’s I mean, the list could be forever, but let’s just kind of kept it high level. So be leadership focused, brave, strong, capable, decisive, and responsible.

Travis 6:26
Don’t mean, that lower your fitting, I’m

Tim 6:29
like, 89% B plus,

Herman 6:33
right. But I’m like, so that’s kind of more like, I would say, business focus less than like, alpha out in the wild, like, if you’re an actual alpha male wolf leading a pack, and you have to put your neck on the line.

Tim 6:44
I mean, it’s still the same leadership focus, brave, strong, you gotta be the strongest, right?

Herman 6:49
Right. Also, the most risks, are risk-seeking, but also, sometimes that leader cannot come to that place without the beta because they need that support. So when you think about beta, which society kind of shits on a little bit, but these are their traits, a lone wolf mentality, not are sorry, loyal to the alpha. They’re friendly, they desire acknowledgment from the alpha for their contributions, and they still do well, with women. They’re strong leadership figures themselves. They like being provided with strong leadership and vision. Right? So like, in the business sense, I’m like, sometimes businesses will fail without that person and that person is compensated, well, that person’s gonna have a beautiful wife. Why are you looking like that? I’m just taking it all in.

Tim 7:36
You know, you know, what I’m struggling with, though. And we talked about this in pre-production is that I’m not picturing. Like, I’m looking at my life, and the people that are coming to mind alpha or beta are women. So and I might be struggling with that throughout this episode. I mean, I do have a company and it’s for women. Yeah. So that might be partially the issue but do females and others come under this same?

Herman 8:13
There’s the same hierarchy with similar and dissimilar traits, right? So I’m like that would be its own episode and obviously, we would need to bring a woman on to discuss that and how that plays out in her world but you know, that would be more relationship based so I wanted to keep it this way focused on man because you know,

Travis 8:30
you start thinking about the lady’s player Yeah.

Tim 8:33
I mean, he said it attractive to women well hmm think I So he picked up the leftovers so this

Herman 8:39
is this what I picked up on when I was doing the research parking lot pimp it’s like a combination of ladies waiting for the

Travis 8:48
bait as a lurkers bait as be walking in Walmart with a with an

Tim 8:53
alpha gets in the club. Yeah, because he knows the bouncer Yeah, the beta can get in so he just plays the lead out oh yeah, I forgot it.

Travis 9:01
I forgot bottle service beta catch him at the bar but the better still

Tim 9:07
so the beta is still he’s still got connects didn’t get in the just lady.

Herman 9:12
All right. Let’s see. Oh wow. All right. So in but next to the alpha is one that I feel like it’s kind of new, but it’s the sigma male. And as I like, I thought that that was myself. I don’t know if it is or not

Travis 9:27
people were college roommates people were blue and white.

Herman 9:31
Kind of, but their traits will be lone wolf mentality and nonconformity. self-sufficient, energized by solitude longing for adventure, and desire for freedom in the journey can be challenging. And if there’s one thing I’ve been on it is a challenging journey. But it’s kind of been my own thing. Like, you know, I’m saying like,

Tim 9:49
I don’t see you as a sigma though. Oh, there’s

Herman 9:52
a lot more to it than that. But we’ll get into that. Then let’s jump down to the delta. So the delta you will get back because it’s like an everyman persona. So that would be the average Joe, dutiful, hardworking, competent, proud. They deserve respect for their work. So that’s like most average guys. But they are leaders in the foundations of their own systems, like in their families, they’re still kind of services like an alpha, but they’re the person that gets shit done. And the entire hierarchy essentially collapses without that person within the group. They can tend to be introverted, private, and maybe have low self-esteem, but that can always be for some reason they’re within. Yeah, some trauma. Yeah. Next would be gamma, highly intelligent, sensitive, and introspective and can be dishonest, and dissatisfied with their position. They believe that they should be in charge, socially awkward, and they’re awkward, but also empathetic and compassionate. Mostly well rounded. And they’re a jack of all trades. And then last would be the omega, which I think has the worst description. But as I read into it, and I didn’t, I should have made this more expensive. But we can dig in more, but the first thing was like, they’re less attractive. And I change that from unattractive. I’m like, I’m not ever gonna make it give me a drink. Oh, ugly, right? So less attractive, awkward, weird, makes people uncomfortable. Oftentimes, they’ll give up on dating relationships. I’m like, Oh, shit, this is every mass murder. Like saying like that. But then when you look at the Oh, sorry. There’s also nowhere to go. But up. But if you look at like the successful omegas it’s Einstein and Bill Gates. So

Travis 11:36
funny. I’m going to be walking around and labeling people like, That is a cute dog.

Herman 11:48
Man, Crown Royal bill.

Travis 11:52
The dude is ugly. He must be an Omega dude. Yeah, not to fret shout out to the elder Susan who came on the show.

Herman 12:01
So that is kind of the rundown of all these traits.

Tim 12:05
Alright, so there are 123456 buckets, essentially, that we can put ourselves in. And, you know, nothing’s black and white in this world. Nothing. We live in the gray, especially in the middle, right? So I could see like, there are certain percentages of you know, one, you know, versus the other. Probably a combination, right? And then it probably depends on where you are in your life

Herman 12:29
stage. Exactly. And like, that’s kind of the point. So I’m like, if we want to be better people towards one another, we need to understand what we’re going through and what we’re trying to do, right? Like, you might need to act like the Alpha without having all the Alpha care, like, I have led before, and I’ve been very successful in leading a big team. But I never called myself a boss. You know, it just wasn’t my thing. I just was good at it. Yeah. Yeah. That wasn’t my calling, you know?

Tim 12:52
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Man. I mean, one of the things I always tell like, anytime I mentor is like, you know, I lead by example. And sometimes you lead by following, right? Like, you just have to take a back seat and let someone else who may be better or faster or stronger, or maybe their opportunity be in the limelight. And I run my business like that. And so, does that make me is that more like beta? Or are those more Delta traits?

Herman 13:26
So it’s funny, I think about you leading your business, it’s like, you are instantly an alpha, but I know you’re introverted. Right. Like, I know that you don’t want to give a speech in front of a group, right? Like, I know that you’re chasing, you know, I’m saying so it’s like, well, what you actually are versus what you have to be right. And yeah,

Travis 13:45
your environment dictates a lot. Sure. And I don’t subscribe to the theory that you’re not just one thing, because I know and different. arenas if I’m in even different cliques a friendship, I’m, my role may be different. Yeah, I’m like, I’m more of an alpha probably with my friends from college than I am with my friends from high school. My, what they would call me at work is probably different than what they would call me at home. You know, so it’s just different. So, yeah, I think that’s right. Yeah.

Tim 14:16
Different friend groups. I mean, it’s the same, like if I think about, like, like, my college, friends, and then my high school friends, but then like, even different groups within those, you know, those experiences. I played a different role. Yeah, you know, and, and I, I’ve tried to think why.

Travis 14:41
It’s just because I think it’s because it’s team it’s a team, it’s a unit. So, therefore, you know, different things are necessary to do certain things. For instance example, you said, you know, when he talked when we started we were talking about you know if we put a list of our friends, you You know, and there was danger ahead, who’s gonna be the first to jump out there? Now due to life experiences, I know that we have various levels of crazy versus ration, right? And I know where I fall on that scale. So when I’m still assessing danger, somebody else is already seen as a threat and is already going to attack, right? And that person would be probably more alpha in that situation. Right. But I, I would say that, if it was me and my family, always right, or I’m going to be quicker to that trigger because there’s one, that’s my role.

Tim 15:34
Yeah. Or that person that’s quick to jump is a gamma because they’re highly intelligent and also unsatisfied with their position. So they are ready to get scrappy.

Herman 15:44
Yeah. And that’s, it’s an interesting concept when it because I’m like, it transcends relationships, friendships, family and work. Like they’re all it’s just like this influx. I’m like, you could simultaneous, like, there was a lady that was trying to rob somebody. The other day, you were up here. I know, right? Crazy Lady she like anyway, but like, I’m out of the way, right? Yeah. You know, police officers, his duty calls, and they jump out and they’re ready to do what they got to do. I’m like that. I mean, it’s your job. And I’m like, instant alpha. And I’m like, Cool. glad y’all did that. I’m out here feeling like a straight beta. Because I’m like, Hey, I got all my shit.

Travis 16:22
For me, I would notice it like in my college friends versus my high school friends. So in my college friends, I have to be the alpha. Like, there’s something simple like planning. If I don’t put my funnel, either put the idea out there stamp or play it. It’s not gonna happen. Yeah. But when my high school friends, I’m waiting for Tim to make the right. Terms like, okay, we’re all going to this concert who’s in? Hey, we’re gonna do this who’s in? And so I’m just kind of like, yea or nay.

Tim 16:51
Man, we got a group chat full of betas, bro. Nobody makes

Travis 16:58
a decision, ya know?

Herman 17:01
Like, everybody’s pushing for one person to

Travis 17:03
make. They won’t, they won’t until it becomes a subgroup of those things. Right? And then, if you’re in one of those little subgroups, and yes, you’ll make a decision you’ll, you’ll rise to the occasion or whatever. But yeah, man, that’s the first thing that came to mind. Because I’m like, my college friends. Like, we want to go on vacation together. And it’s like, okay, where we’re gonna go, man, for three years, we’ve been talking about where we’re gonna go, right, you know, it’s like, finally like, hey, let’s do something. And if I don’t say, Hey, we’re gonna be here at this time and do it. I don’t

Herman 17:31
happen. Nope.

Tim 17:32
So do you think like to have a functional group? Whatever instance it is, you know, scenario, you have to have a certain makeup as these types of males.

Herman 17:46
So essentially, yes, obviously, it would, it would have to be a group greater than six. But I think that everybody kind of will falls into line in some capacity. So one of the relationship things that I had jotted down was like a beautiful girl at a bar, all the homies together. Who’s the first to jump out? Most of us won’t be afraid, but we’ve kind of conditioned one another. So like, we don’t have that fear at all. We’re all kind of

Travis 18:11
I won’t. I am the honey. Don’t come.

Herman 18:18
So you know, let’s go back.

Tim 18:20
First off, we don’t go to this dude, I forgot about the experiences that Roadhouse rubies. Oh, and

Travis 18:32
swings and misses.

Tim 18:34
So now, yeah, you have evolved to a sigma by experience, man,

Travis 18:40
I had to change up the game

Tim 18:41
Started as an alpha. I was striving to be an alpha. I wanted to be an Alpha Man, but I ended up being a delta.

Herman 18:48
there are two things. So recently, I read the book that I gave you rocket fuel. And it really talks about business in this capacity of to be successful, you have to have two things, a visionary, and an integrator. And right like in an alpha-beta kind of world, that visionary, a lot of visionaries are out here running companies that fail because they don’t have the hypothetically beta personality to have to understand them that wants them to be successful. That is okay, like doing that role, which is still being highly compensated and things like that, but I’m like, what they recommend for entrepreneurs is having that second in command to complement one another because a lot of times alphas will fail without that. And they just thrive there too. And I just think that it’s interesting how often an alpha can fail because of the perceptions Right? Like the perception that even I’ve fallen into they’re an asshole they’re too hungry for all these things too aggressive, all those kinds of negative things but at the end of the day, they just kind of are absolute in their quest for one wants to be successful want to have run a successful company? And I think that It’s okay to have followers. And if you look at the macro level, that’s America, right? Yeah. And so you’re not all. Actually, this is kind of my funny thing when taking this approach to America, because I’m like, I feel like a lot of people that follow Trump would consider themselves all alpha males. But in reality, to follow, you are a true beta. And I think that it’s okay that you are okay with that is

Travis 20:23
that, but is that true, though it came there only be one Alpha?

Herman 20:26
I think it?

Travis 20:28
I mean, is alpha singular? Because I mean, there’s nothing that says in the definition that this one is the creme de la creme, the top of the pyramid at all times. So yeah, like, you could be following somebody who’s an alpha or you can be aligned with somebody who was alpha or gravitate to somebody who was an alpha. But does that mean that it’s a singular deal? Like, as soon as I’m intrigued by someone I’m now defaulting to beta tendencies?

Tim 21:01
I mean, let me chime in with my thoughts before you come in with the actual answer. Let me get it. So I don’t think you know what this construct is, right? I don’t think you can, you can’t flip flop, right? Like, if you, if you look at the group, and you have group dynamics, the alpha is the alpha. And if I’m a beta, then I depend on that alpha for guidance for revision, right? And we can’t flip-flop because I haven’t been doing that, right? So I’m not going to be good at it. And I probably don’t have those traits. So I feel like, every time we say, alpha male, I always think of, I think dogs and their owners, right? Or I think of lions, right? And how, you know, the alpha male lion-like, Well, shit, I guess I just talked myself out of that, because the alpha male gets challenged right by younger, smaller alphas. And when he gets his ass whooped, he is no longer Alpha. Yeah, he has to submit to the new. So. So it’s like they were born alphas. And you either conform to the dynamics of the group, or I guess too, you know, to your point, you go and be your lone wolf as your own beta,

Herman 22:18
or, or you can start a new triad or sigma,

Tim 22:21
or you become a beta in that

Travis 22:23
I just don’t see it as a singular deal, like I just don’t see it like, if I’m not the top dog, then I’m not an alpha. Like, for instance, we have collaboratory efforts. So you have, you know, opportunity, sometimes where it’s a collaboration, and so you have alphas from different arenas sitting down. And you can have four alphas, taking 25% of the responsibility for something

Tim 22:47
and getting nothing done. But it’s funny,

Herman 22:48
because if those four alphas are in the right, upper or executive management, and they’re still reporting to a CEO, or a CFO, and then a president and then a board, it’s still there, you might be

Tim 22:59
the alpha in this room. So yeah, you’re an alpha for the org chart. Right? Exactly. So

Herman 23:05
that’s where it’s like, so there is either there’s one vision as an organization to Evan flow to your point.

Travis 23:10
So So I’m not saying that the best way to construct a team or a conglomerate, or some sort of partnership, is to put a bunch of alphas in the same place. But I mean, I think you may know, you have, you know, like Black Panther, you have four, you know, tribes there at the same time, and you’re sitting there and making the weighing out decisions. Now, granted, is always gonna be somebody who is a leader amongst leaders, right? And that may be the top alpha, I don’t know what you call that person. But I mean, I think it’s worth the discussion, the challenge if it’s singular, well, and

Herman 23:45
I think that that’s kind of what the gamma is, are people that fall below him, like, you can say, like, this is what people think, or like, people say, that’s a beta, but I’m like, Really, if that person might not be a beta next year, or that person might not be a gamma next, or whatever it is like it’s, it’s the things that happen in life that make people ebb and flow in these situations in your successful business might, might fail. So you no longer have the confidence, you’re no longer alpha, you’re going to fall all the way down, but you will climb back up. And that’s okay, too. So I just think it’s weird that we label these things or like we try to like people try to figure out these personality types and how to interact. But I’m like it’s ever-changing, but to understand certain people, like, while you, like, exhibit Alpha behavior while you’re on your grind going up to the top. And

Tim 24:27
so I hate to end this episode early, but it sounds like this construct is full of shit. So if it changes so much, depending on the circumstance and people around you, the time of day, the time of year, how old you are,

Travis 24:42
slow, slow down, Spartacus. So what I would say is that there is an inherent need to have certain traits. Some people crave the need to be an alpha. And I guess if you’re going back to something we talked about a long time ago, which would be emotional intelligence. Then if you can understand where somebody’s default logic is, it can help you better communicate work with a partner with an individual. So if somebody needs to, to feel like they’re calling the shots, you know, sometimes it’s best to use that to your advantage and to work with that and to, and to intentionally set dialogue or set different agendas in there for them to believe it’s their own. And there are other people who, you know, that are just, you got to push and prod to make a decision. And if you know that, that’s I don’t know where that would fall on our scale right there. But if you know that, they’re, we’re gonna call them a delta, and average Joe, you know, and you need to push them, then you need to know that. And, you know, they need to know what their default is. Because we’re all going to live in a space comfortably. And we love to be comfortable. So of all these different realms, where’s your home base? That’s probably the real question.

Tim 25:59
So I’m looking at this as a hierarchy. And I’m getting more and more attracted to the gamma. Because like, in your scenario, right, I may not be the boss now, but I strive to be it sounds like that, that transition would be from gamma to an alpha, highly intelligent, right? So I’m capable, unsatisfied with my current position as a gamma. And I believe that I should be in charge. There, that’s, that’s that person, right? So

Herman 26:34
all I could think of when I wrote that was the scar in The Lion King, right? It’s a perfect example of what a game would be. But that’s like, the most negative aspect of what a game is like so not all of them are going to be dishonored. But but

Tim 26:45
but if the scar was evil, you know, and he murderous, then he might have been able to bring the light and the

Herman 26:53
dark together. I mean, kind of Yeah,

Tim 26:57
you know, the hyenas can play alongside the little lion cub,

Herman 27:01
actually. Yeah. So it’s kind of like, like, if you were living in Mufasa’s shadow, if you were to take a work scenario with somebody that wants to grow, some people inherently are going to do shitty things to grow, they’re gonna throw people under the bus. And obviously, you’re gonna watch out for that person but the same person that’s not that negative could be just eager to do what they need to do to get to the next level and they’re going to work hard and they’re going to do his things. But then all of sudden, you move from gamma to you know, whatever else depending on whatever traits you want to lean into. Gonna

Travis 27:31
add that to my coaching. I’m dealing with people I work with who do shady stuff, you can my mother.

Herman 27:37
But I mean,

Tim 27:38
you’ve been demoted. No, but I’m going to the light No, no, just you’re betting on the coach or you’re no longer in coaching for

Travis 27:45
displaying gambling like

Tim 27:50
Omega tendencies.

Travis 27:52
Yeah, we’re gonna need a detailed action plan.

Tim 27:54
So So you said team earlier and I think of the Lakers, right? Starting five, can you match them up with their characteristics and why they suck bass last year? I think that might be that they didn’t have the right team dynamics right, based on Yeah, exactly. Well, we try to get these all these blue chip players, which are been alphas and there you know, their previous teams. Yeah. And then you come together and it’s like, she’s not working yet or because you don’t get to roleplayers

Herman 28:31
High School trends. Your story transitioning from high school football to college football. Did you feel like an alpha when you were done at FAMU?

Tim 28:39
hell Nah, you know, I’m saying short as omega, right? These alphas are huge.

Travis 28:47
Well, I think you’re on to something though, like with the Lakers. So you know, LeBron James will be your alpha, you know, he’s, you know, the star, he’s decisive. He’s brave, you go out there and give you everything he got, you know, etc, etc. And responsibility falls on his shoulders. And then you had Russell Westbrook, you know, starting point guard, but he has, you know, people will believe that he’s an alpha male, but he’s probably more a sigma because he has a lone wolf mentality. And he plays best when he controls everything, not getting the ball and he is not looking to conform. And then

Tim 29:22
login for adventure. Yeah, that’s definitely

Travis 29:24
yeah. And then Anthony Davis, who would be your starting power forward or senator, where’s the soft category? Well,

Tim 29:36
he’s probably the gamma.

Travis 29:39
He’s probably the gamma he has the talents to be there. If he wants to be it, he’s talented. He’s but at the same time, you know, he is a little bit awkward and he is having trouble, you know, will stay on the court, kind of a jack of all trades, though. He can do a lot of different things. He’s got such a skill set, but he doesn’t master anything. And that’s the kind of stuff I was with an identity crisis on the field. So on the court, that’s a good example. The rest of the start and five, they had so many injuries, it’s hard to plug in. So I guess I would go with who was the other guard?

Tim 30:18
Oh, was it? Rondo, he?

Travis 30:23
He was gone. Did you see this to guard? Well, they had Carmelo, and yeah, yeah. So we’ll put Carmelo in there because he’s Carmelo, where is the attraction to women? Getting people pregnant? Part of the journey. And then there’s Dwight Howard, who’s crazy, right? But you know, the key that things story is yeah like there’s identity crisis is not a good genetic makeup.

Tim 30:51
Yep. Now that makes sense. I think there’s tracking

Travis 30:54
I will tell you just like, you know, talking about a sports journey. Going from high school to college, well, I can just stay in college, you know, just having to be very, I was not an alpha, when I got to college, like very, very quiet, very reserved, very scoping in checking the scene, not wanting to make a mistake. But then, due to the situation, I was just there for a long time, right? So as you get more experience, you know how things go, you grow, you get louder, you get more decisive, and what needs to happen, it better get better and more confident. And by the time I was in my fifth year, I was more of an alpha. I was a team captain, I was saying, Hey, do this, do that don’t do this, and do that. And, and very, very loud, which was a whole new place for me to ever be I would have never been there in my life. Never seen that T bone now. But so that but that also helped me so much. Because once you leave that you go into a career,

Herman 31:59
well, I was gonna say it’s kind of funny. So you think about freshmen and seniors at every level, whether you play sports or not. So like everybody gets granted this freedom to be an alpha, like, if you’re a senior, you are alpha to any incoming freshman. Right, just based off of you knowing more of whatever any, you could write, like, they’re looking to you for answers. But I’m like that. Something like I

Tim 32:19
feel like the alpha male comes up from eighth grade, is, you know,

Herman 32:24
another Alpha within this seemed like if you’re a senior, and there’s another x, you know, alpha, they’re like, Man, why are you fucking with that? Right?

Tim 32:29
You read the bench, bro exam,

Herman 32:31
right? So but I’m like, it’s funny because everybody at some level gets to be, I mean, you just kind of become the certain things like you are an alpha because you’re a senior to all of these freshmen.

Tim 32:43
But that doesn’t mean you have the traits to fill that role, right?

Herman 32:47
So that’s why I’m like, it’s almost like a purse, like an, like a perception up, right? Like, you didn’t ask for that. That’s not who you truly are. But you’re still being looked to for guidance from a freshman that might see you as kind and then you get

Travis 33:00
to feel that made a light bulb go off in my head because it is just as much as about how you feel about yourself. The key component, though, is how you make others feel about you. Right? Right. So if you want to be alpha, all you want to, but if you can’t, if nobody’s following you, you can’t get people to subscribe to that theory, man, then there’s going to be a problem, right? And you’re not going to be successful in your attempt. So it’s about you possessing the traits and demonstrating those things in a way that yields the results that you’re trying to get.

Tim 33:28
All right, yeah, so the main question What are you

Travis 33:37
What am I who am I?

Tim 33:41
Pity Pablo,

Herman 33:43
Pablo, and if you’re trying to be Petey Pablo, I’m gonna call that beta

Travis 33:49
I am. I think I wanted to say alpha but I’m not that all the time when

Herman 33:57
he got here he said Alpha without any help because you aggressive

Tim 34:00
I know what are you? He’s like he’s aggressive to me and

Travis 34:04
I mean, can you read the trace from an alpha again? Let me just make sure I look

Tim 34:10
you’re already checked off five can you run through it again, please

Herman 34:15
But see, here’s the thing you run through the traits look there are a lot of traits missing but can what else would be missing would be empathy What do you oh that’s me, and passion would be missing from the alpha which is you sir sorry. Well, can you run you know, I

Travis 34:35
think I see I think I see it so here he leadership focused. I got that I preached that that’s what my business is like I’m teaching leaders how to be leaders. So I got that. Strong or brave.

Tim 34:49
What do you read bro? You are beta okay. No. And look. I know and that’s preconceived, what is the pre

Travis 34:58
beta I own the beta, Max,

Tim 35:01
we got a bit of fish floating in the water on the show over there but talking about

Herman 35:08
look No See, that’s the point.

Tim 35:10
That’s the point of this episode, right is to debunk the myth of, the beta, right because

Herman 35:16
not everybody, leader Yeah, every leader should be leading but but

Tim 35:21
just because you’re a beta doesn’t mean you’re not a leader.

Herman 35:24
Right, exactly,

Tim 35:26
I guess I’m saying

Travis 35:27
so the traits of an alpha leadership if you don’t get off alpha, brave, capable decisive, I’m not decisive I struggle with choosing lunch every

Tim 35:38
so so so that was the one that that got me as well because of my Pisces nature. However, there are different situations right so, you know, I’d like to empower my team and even my clients to make their own decisions mainly because I don’t want to be the one that’s wrong. No, I’m just kidding. I do that. But if it comes back to me, like, alright, it’s black. It’s green. It’s go, it’s stop. It’s no it’s Yes. Like, making those decisions when it comes down to urgency is easier for me. Then making an everyday decision on I like you say like, what am I gonna eat? When am I gonna wear you know, like, little shit like that? Like, those are nonconsequential so

Travis 36:26
for lunch and dinner is the hardest decision of my day. And what I’m gonna wear it right okay.

Tim 36:31
Okay, it is figuring out what you’re going to eat for dinner. Hard. Because you can’t because you figure it out

Herman 36:41
or hungry.

Tim 36:44
I’m gonna turn in my weekend. Exactly that’s why it’s a hard decision because you have other people involved in that decision-making.

Travis 36:53
But my Yes, it’s all bad.

So they yell bad.

Herman 37:02
Hey, look, and if you want to be the athlete, we don’t eat Popeyes tonight then you waste that money because you’re the only one eating Popeyes and everybody else is still hungry Bishop Oh, but I just lay me yeah, I’m like I guess y’all eat cereal. Enjoy your dinner apple.

Tim 37:19
Then everybody why are alpha male lesson shit tonight? This Popeyes? We don’t eat Popeyes

Travis 37:25
Are you trying to black out for Melis?

Herman 37:31
Oh, man herb. So we had this conversation last night and I think I am a true sigma. I am different. I don’t really conform. I’m gonna do my own thing

Tim 37:46
know what did Wify call you?

Travis 37:48
I don’t see. I don’t see you. Do you agree with

Herman 37:50
that? Yeah. Yeah.

Tim 37:52
Yeah, but never before that. That she does not know bro. You are not a Sikh. Wolf. I’m

Herman 37:59
not alone. Well, but it’s weird. The older I’ve gotten the more I’m totally fine being alone.

Tim 38:03
I asked because she told you we just don’t care as much about other people who

Travis 38:08
follow our rules as long as it’s not the DMV, do I follow Brad Pitt right that was also an escaped wolf who thumbed his nose up Texas

Herman 38:25
sticking it to the man. I was like I gotta pay what for? How much

Tim 38:29
and then the main sticking to you for two times

Travis 38:32
the amount of property you get you to get your cut when you get you better, you

Tim 38:35
better beta your rise and fall in line. Follow these laws and roll man. Now I don’t know six

Herman 38:43
sigma, but I think you’re a delta.

Travis 38:48
I’ve been your delta Herman

Tim 38:48
thrown the dynasty sign. I just don’t dutiful hardworking competent and proud Yep. Desire respect for their work. That’s that number one. Number one Herman. Yes. Herman Brady Watson. 19

Herman 39:04
HP de Hall, bro. But here’s the deal though.

Tim 39:08
week in week weekend. I’m not that hockey. Go back to episode five and find the tape. We got a real we got like I can play it back. Really? Yes.

Herman 39:19
I just don’t think I’m that hard-working or dutiful. Well, I mean, in my nucleus. No, we

Travis 39:23
didn’t say anything about hard work. You said I’m hard and respect the work. What you do, do you want your damn credit?

Herman 39:32
Yeah, but

Tim 39:34
introverted. Private, maybe low self-esteem.

Herman 39:39
I have low self-esteem. It says maybe cuz I won’t see that at all you

Tim 39:43
ever been cheated on?

Herman 39:44
Probably. Hasn’t everybody?

Tim 39:48
Probably. Probably. Like that’s I say that because that’s the in the description.

Herman 39:54
Yeah, no, I don’t. I don’t think I have an uncomplicated life at all. I have a very, very complicated life.

Tim 40:04
Huh? Oh, yeah,

Herman 40:06
and I don’t have the freedom to do any hobbies. None of My hobbies is driving people to school and picking them up from

Tim 40:13
you love cooking and my kill every love

Herman 40:17
my duty

Tim 40:18
Oh no, you don’t like cooking? I mean if he was doing a potluck tomorrow you ain’t gonna bring hot jambalaya. I will love cooking it

Herman 40:28
I just want to request one child say wow this dude you will respect for your

Travis 40:36
work. You’d like. You’d like cooking you hate dishes.

Tim 40:41
Which I do both we go and give those to the but you

Travis 40:44
hate dishes. I wish I feel you I hate dishes too

Tim 40:51
just I have nobody likes cheese.

Herman 40:53
I just don’t see myself as that because this is even in the other one. Like my archetype was a mentor. I didn’t like it if I was to take a quick maybe that’s what we should do. We should take quizzes. Like the archetype quiz on the other one was still

Tim 41:07
a website. We did a BuzzFeed episode, we got to take some quizzes.

Herman 41:13
Doug, I’m not I’m talking about the quizzes you give people as the archetype. Yeah, actual Are

Tim 41:18
you trying to are you trying to match up archetypes with

Herman 41:22
some level they kind of are because this is the like, that is the

Tim 41:26
you know, so Alright, let’s talk about something that sounds like this was something that kind of bothered me earlier when I talked about, you know, throwing this whole construct out of the window? Because there are so many of them, right? So, like the DISC profile, you got Myers Briggs, you got our archetype? You have this social dominance hierarchy, right? So I think these are, it’s kind of like religion, they all come from the same place trying to do similar things. But differently.

Herman 41:55
Yes. Right.

Travis 41:57
Where are we? Yeah, for we break that down. Okay, trying to escape himself. Yeah, he wanted to get into the weeds. But let’s turn to God. So where do you think you fall?

Tim 42:08
If I evaluate work-life relationships? And I mean, it’s basically everything. I would say I’m a combination. Is that my decisiveness kicking in? I think I’m, I think I’m in an alpha. Man. I’m in an alpha male role, you know, with the business. I think that as the male of the household, I’m doing air quotes, quotes. I am the Alpha there. But by no means do I make the majority of the decisions that happen under my roof. Right. So do I get in where I fit in? Right, like, am I a chameleon? Am I code-switching my male dominance? Because a lot of times I feel most things I do. I’m leadership focused. But brave, strong, capable, decisive, and responsible. Me. So I have beta traits of alpha traits. I got delta traits, and probably a delta.

Herman 43:31
I should have expanded this list and I apologize for that.

Travis 43:34
No, no, no, that’s cool. I honestly,

Tim 43:36
I think as an alpha male. Alphas don’t apologize.

Herman 43:41
That is true. Yeah, he’s the first alpha to say.

Tim 43:46
I didn’t say so. I’m talking about him. So so do sake, do sigma apologize. Signals do

Travis 43:55
their own thing was kick ass and take names later?

Herman 43:59
Sick out of there. I

Travis 44:00
think. I don’t see. I think that I think that you are

Tim 44:05
probably 50% Alpha 50% Delta.

Travis 44:11
That is a combination for

Herman 44:13
you see, that’s why this was so calm. This is very confusing because I see myself as a delta in relationships. I don’t see myself as a delta at all anywhere close to like work.

Tim 44:25
Is there a quiz for this?

Herman 44:27
Probably i

Travis 44:28
think I Yes, I think that there’s a little bit of peace in several categories. For me. I probably say my number one after really reading is probably beta. And then I think after that then it’s probably secondarily gamma. Yeah, I agree.

Tim 44:52
Yeah. So let’s, let’s take the quiz, and then we’ll post the results on social and we’ll see if we, you know, are in lockstep with Are predictions,

Travis 45:01
except for the socially awkward. I’m not socially awkward. That’s what

Herman 45:04
you think. But you are used to being awkward. Jokes. If you were

Tim 45:10
me, for I used to be when you were though, we were the only black person in the neighborhood.

Herman 45:15
Yeah, when you make a joke, we heartened and it was straight crickets,

Tim 45:18
bro. Socially Awkward,

Herman 45:22
you know, when Tommy didn’t

Tim 45:23
show it never seen it. So I was gonna go into that earlier right when I think about different training groups, right? And if I go to race, I have several different, several different not racing, several different white friend groups, integrated groups, and then, you know, black groups. I’m, uh, I play a different role in those for most of the groups that are majority white, I play the alpha male in friend groups.

Herman 45:53
Do you play that? Or are you kind of placed there because all eyes are already going to be on you? Because you’re the only black thing sticking out? Like, I

Tim 45:59
don’t know, it’s been like that since? You know, I was

Travis 46:02
91? Five? Yeah, 90.

Herman 46:06
Right. So I’m saying I’m like, we’re kind of another thing, but just kind of enforced there.

Tim 46:10
Right. But then you take the incidence of okay, now I’m threatening to, you know, for the a&m and I’m at a school of 99.8% black. I’m his beta has come.

Travis 46:22
This is spicy, because those, those were

Tim 46:25
different types of alphas I’ve never even seen before.

Travis 46:29
Yeah, that is so you know what I’m saying. Man, Yeah, cuz you’re about to go about it. Alright. So you’re not in your natural habitat, right?

Tim 46:38
However, now that you know, fast forward 20 years, right? And so, you know, the family, we’re going down to Miami, soon to go for the FAMU Jackson State game, right? And I’m gonna be with a bunch of black alpha males. And now that I have this in my head, I’m gonna be very, very cognizant as to how we interact with each other and who starts to be a little subservient. Which is me, like I get in where I fit in. However,

Herman 47:12
can you go get me some ice? No.

Tim 47:16
Joe Biden, but I don’t know. But we’ll see. We’ll see how it goes. Because I think over time, right? So like, in business, my confidence is as built, right, right. And down there. We’re adults, right? We have more money, we have more access, we’re, we have more wisdom. So I think we all just have more confidence in how to just navigate life. And I and that’s what I love about, you know, these types of reunions with old friends, you can see how things have changed. People have changed and come out of their Beta shells, right? Because they were thrust into a leadership position. And now they’re an alpha on a day-to-day basis. And then they get back into this old group and like, Alright, where do I fit in? Now? That’s gonna be very interesting.

Travis 48:02
Yes, always. It’s always good to do that right now. Because when you were in college, it was just such a different dynamic, like you said, in the majority of our circles, we were just so broke. And we had nothing so you’re really on equal footing. And then now life has happened. People are different. So some people who were you know very much so in the background now they got money, and now they want to call shots. And what are we gonna do? Let’s go here. I got this. I got

Tim 48:31
everybody trying to be broke for the weekend. Yeah, before the weekend.

Travis 48:37
The cat who had it all back in the day had all the girls had the car had had everything now that got an average got a Delta-like job.

Tim 48:47
What are you talking about? I know you guys, somebody picks us talking about somebody just like, frankly, are they listening? Do they know you talking about the

Travis 48:56
Oh hell, if you take it back into your business. So but now you see that you know now it’s you know, well, I’m not sure we want to do that. You know, because they ain’t got it. You know, it’s just really, really different. Yep. But this is the time of the season, right? Like he’s going back. You know, and I plan on kicking it with my friends from college since you know, Missouri State’s number five in the nation.

Tim 49:20
I heard that

Travis 49:23
you’ve never been there. Never been there before. Well,

Tim 49:27
on that same list. I saw Jackson State is number 10.

Travis 49:29
I saw that so I saw that. So yeah, that’s gonna hurt.

Herman 49:35
Y’all handle him. Y’all don’t play that. That what is what is that? What was that list?

Travis 49:41
That was an FCS. Okay. Yeah, we did not play we could play Jackson. But

Herman 49:48
when I was looking at Would you want to go down to Mississippi, the

Travis 49:51
most fun the most fun game I’ve ever played was at Hampton. Absolutely. We played at Hampton. And Hampton was so dumb. We beat Hampton on The road but man that band during the game when they play a crucial conflict during the game smoking Oh, hey in the middle of the bar.

Herman 50:07
Oh, when age right there. Hey,

Travis 50:09
no, not the whole huddle recognized what was going on but at least six of us were like, Oh,

Tim 50:16
I remember when we pay who was it? Se? Did we play at Southeast High School? Yes. I

Travis 50:22
remember that we played central

Tim 50:23
Central. Yeah, it was central. Yeah. In their band. Yeah. Came out. When they were in the stands. Yeah. It was like, we will be your buds. But yes, we got some tools for it. And for that, but yeah, I mean, you know, we go to the game for the band anyway. So we will win that competition, or you go. Alright, when do you want to get somewhere?

Herman 50:45
Oh, man. There are so many places that this could go. But I don’t know which direction makes the most sense. Well, that is a question. Right? Because I’m like, so maybe then it’s time to wrap up?

Travis 51:04
Well, then if that’s the case, I think it’s kind of it’s an interesting topic. Thank you for bringing it up. I think that you find where your home is. Hey, thank

Tim 51:12
you. Well, that is not how for trades.

Herman 51:16
Well, you’re thanking people you’re welcome. Welcome, follow my nano

Travis 51:20
how much he needs respect for his work. So, therefore, I’m feeding to

Herman 51:26
that. But that’s where I struggle because I don’t strive to be a leader. I’m not going to work that hard. I am gonna think that hard. That is work for me. 

Tim 51:36
No, work for you is doing yard work. Herman will stay Oh, 24 hours a day, he will pull an all-nighter to think and share his ideas. But damn, I gotta execute on them where I gotta go. Like he’s trying to strategize about the dark all the time, don’t

Travis 51:52
you think all day to not execute?

Herman 51:55
Hey, man, don’t worry about what I’m doing. But lone wolf energy by

Tim 51:57.                                                                                                                       To the point. So to the point where I think the point of this episode is to be self-aware. Yes. Right to be able to identify where you what traits you have, I don’t think anyone is one thing. Absolutely. Right. But if you understand that you can be you know, self-aware about what you are, and in different scenarios, then you can understand the dynamics and how you play well with others. Right. And,

Herman 52:24
and I think that that’s where not to cut you off. But I’m like when you look at society, and how horrible we are getting along with one another. Like we said 1000 times people are not coming out of the pandemic well, right. And I think that that’s because there are all these misguided personality traits that are in so much conflict like everybody thinks they’re now for everybody doesn’t want to be a beta. But I’m like, you’re all of the things simultaneously know what they are. And if you’re going through something, if you lost a job, but you’re still giving off Alpha energy, like that, doesn’t mesh like that’s going to butt up to somebody, and it’s creating conflict. And I feel like maybe this isn’t the overarching thing that if everybody understood this entire hierarchy, everything would be better. That’s not what I’m saying. But it could reduce some friction. Absolutely. Where friction does not need to exist.

Tim 53:11
1,000% Yeah,

Travis 53:12
that’s because we’ve never been more empowered than we are today. So everybody has a platform. So everybody has something that’s alpha-like, a trait to be able to communicate from, I guess, a speaker, or, whatever. So that is the problem. And Male Well, that is not the problem. But maybe that’s an opportunity that can

Herman 53:31
be an alpha at a moment in time. But that doesn’t mean it’s going to be forever. Like that doesn’t help as

Tim 53:38
that doesn’t make you an alpha lighter. Right? Right. You just subbing in.

Herman 53:42
Yeah. Like, it’s not always gonna be you.

Tim 53:44
So you touched on the platform, and I wanted to go there before we wrapped up the interwebs, I think have changed, change the internet and the content that people consume, can infect your mind, right? That’s a waste of content, makes you want to go buy something that you had no idea you needed because you don’t write or you consume hateful content. And now you’re in a bad mood raged Right? Or now you think something of this population of people. So the fake news or real news, the ads, the thoughtful and emotional content. People didn’t have that when this construct was built, right? So now you got false. Alphas, right, like people were thinking there’s something else because they’re that online, right? And then you get into the real world and you’re like, step out as an athlete following you. Right, right. 

Herman 54:42
that is a thing nobody else is following. So you’re saying or maybe you do feel like people are following you because you have a few 1000 followers, right?

Tim 54:49
But that

Travis 54:51
I know, I know, a couple of people who go through a lot for 14 likes. They put a lot of energy out there. for like six likes, I know a dude. I know dude. I’m gonna find out if he’s listening to this I know some of the homies will hear it and be like oh man, but I know a homie who says a lot of thirst traps a lot of thirst traps for 11 likes

Tim 55:19
so he would be all

Travis 55:22
three technique a

Tim 55:26
the Omega making people uncomfortable

Travis 55:32
he’s all yeah he’s always doing in the world wants him to stop. He stopped. He hasn’t caught on yet.

Tim 55:38
Alright, let’s wrap this up. I want to go through the different levels of the hierarchy. And let’s throw out someone’s celebrity A B list, whatever, who we think personifies that social dominance level. Okay, let’s start from the bottom that we hear. Okay. Omega. So less attractive, awkward, weird, makes people uncomfortable. gives up on relationships. And resentful of women.

Herman 56:08
Elon Musk.

Tim 56:11
That’s probably perfect. All right.

Travis 56:13
Yeah, Mic drop. But it’s well, Russell Simmons.

Tim 56:19
Okay. Interesting.

Herman 56:23
Huh? It’s also weird because they’re also at the top of the right like Elon Musk has more money than I could even comprehend.

Tim 56:32
Yeah. Well, I was thinking that. Yeah. I was gonna put them in gamma for the highly intelligent piece but the whole well-rounded versatility jack of all trades. He just Martin got a lot of resources, I think. Okay, so what about gaming? Yeah, I mean, I just read all those socially awkward, empathetic, compassionate, most well rounded

Travis 56:59
jack of all trades.

Tim 57:04
Will Smith. Who is he again?

Herman 57:07
He might be that probably is a good one. I don’t know if he’s socially awkward, but maybe that plays into why he appears to be humorous. Yeah, he’s

Tim 57:15
I think so. Oh,

Herman 57:17
just don’t smack people at events. Y’all don’t do that.

Tim 57:20
They’re getting more awkward than

Herman 57:23
maybe he’s alpha because he creates awkward situations exist within

Travis 57:27
you know, I was thinking about it, but since he did it, I’m like, Nah, no, no slapping people. But see, there are consequences. I hate to get us canceled.

Herman 57:40
I could meet Yeah, yeah. So like

Tim 57:42
so like this gamma as I think of, I think of like triple threats, right? Like, will lynnium Jamie Foxx awkward

Travis 57:53
and, like

Tim 57:56
you know, people that that are just very talented.

Travis 58:01
But don’t master any.

Tim 58:03
Well, I mean, I mean, those guys mastered like, yeah. But Seth Rogen. Yeah, that one down? I think that’s a good example, especially on the awkward part.

Travis 58:14
Yeah, somebody who does a lot and is very versatile, but they’re never the lead character.

Herman 58:21
That’s so many actors that I can’t name

Travis 58:25
it’s like,

Tim 58:26
and the third best-supporting actor goes to

Herman 58:29
Lewis Lewis Lewis Are

Travis 58:33
you here? See them everywhere but there’s always the racket there in everything.

Herman 58:41
Column Louis, man. Yes, Louis.

Tim 58:43
All right. Let’s move up to delta. So this is your average Joe there’s a hard worker in there

Herman 58:49
be an average Joe that is popping as a celebrity.

Tim 58:53
Ya know so I think this is the person right your average Joe is the hardest working you know person that’s going to be an extra gonna be taking a leading role a supporting role will be you know, come in on an on a track. Yeah, like who produces the most content? On average, Joe would be Nicolas Cage. Who got a more moving look, than Nick bro? Wifey and now we watched Steven Seagal.

Travis 59:20
Kevin Bacon.

Herman 59:22
Steven Seagal,

Tim 59:24
Steven Seagal

Herman 59:25
who I met, whose biggest shit I do was big is

Tim 59:28
right. I was no he so he’s an actual master. Like karate. Yeah, he goes karate. So hey, I just got to bring you up bro. But the movie that we watched Nicolas Cage that he just came out with the unbearable weight of a massive talent. It’s got him and Pedro Pascal. I don’t know if you know who he is. He’s awesome. He would be hard work and average Joe I think to bro That movie was so funny. but it just makes fun of how many films he has created and his brand and how he can be anything, you know, in anyone in any, any film. And I’m looking at his IMDb, it’s pretty long. They’re getting the other ones.

Herman 1:00:18
So I guess one of my things would be, would the character Jon Snow be a Delta even though he was an alpha in leadership, but at the same time at the end of I don’t want to give away the end of

Tim 1:00:30
that show, man Oh, this is no spoiler alert, right? But at the same time, he would be the I would make him a beta though. Right.

Herman 1:00:39
But who was he supporting other than himself? And he was

Tim 1:00:41
the house. Right? Like whoever was leading the house. That Wasn’t

Herman 1:00:45
his house. But my I guess my point is, he was like, he is portrayed as he’s not the biggest.

Tim 1:00:51
He’s a bastard child. Right, as they put it in the show. So there’s no way he could be an alpha in society. Right until he, yeah, killed everybody else or, you know, made it made also had

Herman 1:01:05
that heart of like, the compassion, the empathy piece, like Yeah, so I would say that maybe I’m wrong, but I just to me, that is his archetype is delta.

Tim 1:01:14
Yeah, he’s, uh, he’s, you know, we’ll put another one on here called enigma. I think that one fits. Okay. JOHNSON Oh, boom. All right. Let’s see what we do beta.

Herman 1:01:31
Those two, I think Chandler and Phil Dunphy are I think, perfect examples. Phil Dunphy who’s from Modern Family. I didn’t watch that. Oh, well, I do not watch

Travis 1:01:44
that. Seen it.

Tim 1:01:46
I mean, beta is the Supporting Actor. Supporting Role, right, like the one that actually does all the work. Funny.

Travis 1:01:54
And in movies, Samuel would be one right? And what movies Sammy? Oh, he’s always supporting. Yeah, he makes the movie. He’s he comes in to steal the show, but he’s always supporting he’s never really the lead.

Herman 1:02:07
Hmm. What an interesting dynamic, a dynamic Django Unchained, who was the lead because they would not have been alpha or beta. Or I guess they were alpha and beta, in a certain context, right? Because he couldn’t be successful without homeboy money. And, you know, vice so he couldn’t

Tim 1:02:23
capture Oh, you been the characters? Yeah. Not the actual actors. Jamie. Yeah.

Herman 1:02:27
Jamie Foxx and I can’t remember what the doctor’s name was. But they needed each other in that, yeah. So ironically, they could both be alphas and betas simultaneously.

Travis 1:02:43
Or Laurence Fishburne’s mind blown. Morpheus?

Herman 1:02:47
Morpheus. Yeah. Because Neo would have been the Alpha. Yep.

Tim 1:02:51
Was he though he was in the decisive?

Herman 1:02:55
That would have been one of those

Tim 1:02:57
was technical, right? Like he was training him leading him, putting him on the path to success. And then so Morpheus turned him into an alpha,

Herman 1:03:08
right? So Morpheus would be the beta, right? Like that supporting cast has given you all the skills because you can take this further than I can because you have that.

Tim 1:03:17
Okay, I see. I get it. Okay, that helped explain these concepts a little bit more to so sigma.

Herman 1:03:26
So the sigma ones I think are great Wolverine, the lone wolf

Tim 1:03:29
mentality nonconformity. Wolverine is a good one. So Steve Jobs

Herman 1:03:33
that stood out to me because I’m like, Man, everybody hated him, loved him, but he was going to build his shit. And he built something unbelievable, right? And he did it his way. Sure. And people told him it was gonna fail.

Tim 1:03:44
But look Muhammad Ali is a really good example. Yeah. Oh, man, especially

Herman 1:03:49
for that period. Right. Like he was saying shit that I mean, obviously a lot

Tim 1:03:54
of he was living in 2030, bro, bro. Yeah, that’s a great example. And then and then alpha. What’s the best alpha that you can think of?

Herman 1:04:03
The best alpha? So many versions? I don’t think that that’s a good one. I agree.

Travis 1:04:12
best offer? I think a

Herman 1:04:17
terrible leader Shinzo Washington Mike Tyson

Travis 1:04:19
is a sigma Denso was what came to mind

Herman 1:04:26
Danza would be Oprah maybe. Although Oprah kind of strikes me as something

Tim 1:04:30
else we were in doing late.

Herman 1:04:34
I was gonna go through make that its own episode. But when it comes to a

Tim 1:04:39
Dinsdale is a good one. Obama

Herman 1:04:45
Obama’s probably Yeah. Hope that he Yeah.

Tim 1:04:48
Yeah, I mean everybody at the top of their game, right? But, and so what you didn’t do though, is you did not put the negative trait Have an alpha on here. You did all the positive ones.

Herman 1:05:04
Yeah, you don’t have to go far to see those negative ones. You just don’t. But I would recommend people I mean, it’s too much this episode could be five

Tim 1:05:12
but like but to your point earlier though the misconception is that alphas are assholes. Right? And we’ve talked about this in business and how like I don’t even and I wifey we talk about this all the time. We don’t lead our businesses as, alpha-like, as we think we should.

Herman 1:05:33
That’s because society moved on from that type of leadership. Right? Like that was like leadership from like, the 40s and 50s. Is this cutthroat? Look, you work in this fucking factory and,

Tim 1:05:44
bro. Yeah, I still hear it, man. It’s still here, but

Herman 1:05:47
not like how it was where it’s like, I’ll run this company, I’m not paying you shit. Now. It’s like, Hey, we’re doing the social good. And we’re doing all these things. Were right, right

Tim 1:05:55
out there. But they’re doing that because they know that they have to, they have shareholders to live, you know? What I mean, is to make them happy, and they have consumers that need to know that they have a social responsibility and all that, but do the CEOs really care?

Herman 1:06:13
I mean, yeah, like some of those,

Tim 1:06:15
those alpha male CEOs,

Herman 1:06:19
I don’t even know we weren’t that an alpha male CEO is that much of an alpha anymore. Because there are so many people that influenced their decision to gather the final decision maker butter?

Tim 1:06:30
Well, I think of Facebook, Facebook was the first one that came to mind. It’s why I brought up the whole male versus female thing is because, you know, Zuckerberg, he’s the leader. He’s the Alpha Yeah. And great example. But

Herman 1:06:42
well, being an extreme omega,

Travis 1:06:44
while allowing the man of the three of us to be who’s in big business to go ahead and retort

Tim 1:06:50
let me finish my thought before you come in and Jad man, but Facebook’s beta is the real reason why they took off, Sheryl became prime for yes, yeah, that’s okay.

Travis 1:07:06
So yeah, like we just went through a CEO change. And it’s very clear, that the personality trait of the guy who’s in charge now is alpha. And what you’re seeing is a complete culture shift, you see that? When they come in with their agenda, you alphas don’t prioritize relationships as much. So, therefore, you’re seeing that, like, we’re seeing a complete shift on focus on dollars and cents, and less about people was once before, and he’s like,

Herman 1:07:36
none of you all will be here, because I’m in charge now. Well, but

Travis 1:07:40
I’ve seen, I’ve seen it before. Whenever things like this happen, the fear of God takes its toll. And you see, leaders change, and people react differently because of this alpha male energy at the top. And no, and if that alpha male energy is one that is prioritized on certain things, then you’re going to see people conform to, it for survival. Yeah. And so then you see people cut off their nose to spite their face, it just all trickle down. It’s a brand new culture. Now personally, I’m not complaining about my employment situation. But what I’m saying is, I can notice that there is a

Tim 1:08:22
shift or the head of HR, I hope you didn’t notice that.

Travis 1:08:26
It’s a shift from the executive, you know, the executive level. And when the problem with a lot of companies is executives, will shift, and pivot hard and fast. I mean, that’s,

Herman 1:08:40
well, that’s what they typically why Yeah, like you don’t make its decisions. And it’s

Travis 1:08:44
tough for localized levels to pivot so quickly because once they pivot, there are real-life results for the people who are actually accomplishing the tasks. And there’s a significant lag and, so I’ve been in companies before, and I’m in a company that’s trying to balance all that. So it’s

Herman 1:09:01
the politics at its finest. Well,

Tim 1:09:04
I mean, it’s politics, but I mean, it’s business, right? Like you, if there’s, I don’t know why the previous CEO left, but typically, it’s, it’s for change, right? You’re moving in a new direction, you need a new subject matter expert who’s done this before, who’s scaled who’s, you know, horse, whatever, vertically, horizontally, like whatever. But, based on your story, you don’t have to be in a leadership position to be an alpha. Right, your previous CEO now that you’ve seen a real alpha, what was your previous CEO was an alpha role but was an

Travis 1:09:44
the alpha role, but he wasn’t he, to a lesser degree? Yeah. of extremism, I would say.

Herman 1:09:52
I’m sorry, and I know we probably need to wrap up but this is making me think about the chain coaching in college football because those roles change. So often, I’m like, Man, you come in there, you can’t be an alpha, even though you have to be a leader to inspire a team and inspire change and all that stuff. I’m thinking of LSU. But I’m like, thinking about a ton of SEC schools where like, when that change happens, like, how do you get people that are only going to be there a few years to follow you as a leader? Or to see you as an Alpha Order? Like, why? Why should I listen to you? It’s

Tim 1:10:22
about the relationships. You don’t Yeah, take those seriously.

Travis 1:10:25
Leadership is always about connecting needs and wants. And it’s about, you know, if I need to get this out of you, I have to match that with what you want out of your situation. And we have to be able to match that to a common goal. So you know, or

Tim 1:10:39
not there. So you out, and we’ll pull somebody else that is you know, that’s got it, transfer portal. So there are different types of leadership. Yeah, exactly.

Travis 1:10:47
Yeah. But one thing I always talk about is, there’s that, you know, you can change parts interchangeably, or whatever if there’s an abundance, but true leadership is getting the most out of your people. Yeah. And that’s a situation that I’m dealing with right now, is I have a leader who is trying to just, you know, kick people out, maybe I’ll get another person in here. And I’m like, You’re not demonstrating anything that I would call leadership by doing such a thing. We had a team here, if you’re the leader, who I think you should be, you should be able to get some out of that talent. Now, if they’re truly incompetent, then you, you manage out. Right. But that’s not the case. You know, you’re just changing parts to change parts. And that’s not good Alpha energy.

Tim 1:11:33
I agree. I agree. So did you have this conversation?

Herman 1:11:36
Did you let go of the Alpha? It’s just it’s a tough conversation.

Tim 1:11:42
Yeah, he fires his boss.

Travis 1:11:45
Question. And the question and somebody’s leadership is tough, but it has to be done

Herman 1:11:49
to it. Well, most people don’t understand the broader strategy like that most people don’t even see the overarching strategy, especially a corporation that big, so the person that’s the lowest on the totem pole has no idea what’s happening. They just know things are changing, and people don’t like change. And this is going to mess up my whole thing. Yeah. And it’s just like managing down to that. This is changing. This is why and then somehow trying to connect the why to a result or goal.

Travis 1:12:16
One of the reasons why I settled on beta is because in my position as much as I think that I’m the man and as much as I think as confident as I might be, or at least exude. I’m always the man next to the man. Yeah, you’re in human resources. I’m not running anything. You know, yes. If everybody goes on, I’ll be the last one there because I gotta cut the check. But it’s not the man. And so

Tim 1:12:38
that was like, you gonna be real busy.

Travis 1:12:40
So I’m technically the beta job. Yeah. Yeah, technically,

Tim 1:12:46
just got upgraded your beta plus, you gotta put out fires for relationship fires, right?

Travis 1:12:52
Yeah, technically, that’s where I fall. And so I mean, I guess one thing I’ve learned today is to know your role.

Herman 1:12:59
And maybe that’s why I saw myself as a segment because my pathway to where I am was so nontraditional, right, like I wanted to do basically what I’m doing and I fucking feel like I went through everything. Good, bad, indifferent, and crazy to get there. And somehow,

Tim 1:13:16
yeah, you guys have sigma traits. But they’re not convinced. So. Yeah,

Herman 1:13:24
I gotta do this guy?

Tim 1:13:31
All right. We got to take the quiz. That’s gonna be the definitive answer. There’s no put it up. There’s no cheating.

Herman 1:13:42
I mean, I got my DISC profile. I had to take me I had to take my DISC profile, I think three times. Because the first two it was dead center. There’s no way that’s possible. I did it twice. And then I had to, like,

Tim 1:13:53
be the only one that did it wrong.

Herman 1:13:55
I read everything. So like, I could see the questioning and I have

Travis 1:14:00
the same problem.

Tim 1:14:02
Yeah, answering the result that you want to

Herman 1:14:06
get to. And then I just saw the second one was a reflection of the first you want to make sure that it’s throwing me off and I’m like, That’s not

Tim 1:14:11
do overthink is kinda let me see, that’s not sigma. That sounds pretty bad to me. All right, well, alpha, beta, gamma, delta, epsilon, whatever, you

Herman 1:14:25
are right on it.

Tim 1:14:27
I think. I think I think that the moral of the story, is right, so be self-aware, understand it, and then you know, share it with people around you, right? Figure out how to work better and play well together and all that good stuff. And, I will be interested to see what we are and also maybe unpack the female side of this because I think that’ll be interesting. That’s probably going to be super complex.

Herman 1:14:49
And my thing just to kind of go on that would be like learn what it is about people and how you can better support them by understanding the change that might happen as people go through certain changes. So if you know these things that you can predict kind of how they’re going to act you can be a better friend and supporter helping them move on to the next level 1,000% Let’s go

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