‘The Middle Ground’ Revisited: Everything We Didn’t Say

Nov 21, 2022 | Season 3

A few weeks ago we had Glenn Sandifer II on the pod to discuss his High-Value Man relationship book, ‘The Middle Ground.’ This week we’re cracking the book back open to unpack our thoughts on Mr. Sandifer’s theories. Where did we agree? Where did we disagree? And was Herm really mad though?

Hosts & Guests

Travis Brown

Herman Watson

Tim McCoy

Black in the Middle Podcast episode gems

‘The Middle Ground’ Revisited: Everything We Didn’t Say

Herman: As you can imagine, families begin to lose value as more women chose to rely on social programs and less on the natural order. This order is that men provide women nests and children grow and develop some men and women upon themselves in a precarious position where their desires, expectations, and outcomes do not align. Thing is, that is horseshit. That program reduced black poverty by more than 40% since 64 more black people are out of poverty, and aren’t in social welfare programs. 

Tim: But it still f***** up the family unit, though. Like, just be real, right?

Herman: Did it?

Tim: I think the nuances of relationships in the modern day have gotten out of f****** control. Let’s keep it real. 52 genders my nig. Absurd. Cancel me if you want. Absurd. So this book is the basic two, right? Man and woman have a relationship. It’s not going to apply to all the other craziness going on.

Tim: Women looking for high-value men. Check yourself before you come out with this is what I need, girl. This is my list, girl.

Herman: That’s what I’m saying. I get that.

Tim: Your list is only three bullet points. Get your s*** together before you start.

Herman: And when you get that together what I’m saying is a high-value man might not be there at all.

Tim: But if a high-value woman comes up to the plate, I got a good job. I’m ready to support you in your dreams and goals. I’ll cook. Come on.

Toggle for full episode transcript »

Tim 0:00
All right, open up your hymnals chapter God is good flip the good book to the boys to high value men Chapter,

Travis 0:17
The Book of the whiten up to wait around,

Herman 0:21
Amy. Black dude in the corner. Joking myself

Tim 0:27
so good. I’m not gonna look at his ankles.

Travis 0:31
We’re back with another episode of Black in the middle middle class middle of the map, a podcast by three friends who seem to always find themselves stuck in between

Tim 0:40
black culture and white America. If you’re a believer that genuine conversations can be a first step to closing the divide. And you’re in the right place the metal

Travis 0:49
with us. Let’s go

Tim 1:00
should do okay should break down the book. Like we should do a follow up episode to the book middle ground, read it thoroughly in like highlight take notes. Like, let’s talk it out. Because I feel like we left that unfinished, right? We did not unpack our issues with it. Just do that off the cuff right now. Right? That’s why I’m saying okay, we know you’re very passionate about it. Yeah. So we had so we had Glenn, the author of of the middle ground on the episode a few weeks back and close friend. And so I think Herman and Travis, I think you both maybe because he was a close friend. pulled your punches. Or maybe because he was so damn buttoned up. I mean, the beard was crisp.

Travis 1:47
Somebody come in Beijing. No, no. Okay, that vegan.

Tim 1:52
And I mean, he, Glenn was he was ready for the pod. Like, let’s not get it twisted. His his political strategy to answering questions. But it’s not that he didn’t answer your questions as a politician, because politicians don’t actually answer questions. Right. But he just did a great job. And it probably is because he was trained by the I mean, the most formidable teachers from the illustrious, this Florida agricultural and mechanical University. Because he went to the School of Business and Industry.

Travis 2:29
Oh, so there’s something to his pedigree, it is that helped him prepare for our interview and this book, it is definitely that was you would reflect the views of the book. Your you yourself said again, the book and those from that book speaks for family you

Tim 2:51
know, I think his approach now going on his approach you know, he tried to he tried to he tried to lead me to trap Yeah, not gonna fall Senate. No, no, Travis will do like

Travis 3:04
you in the option and pull out.

Tim 3:09
I’m stingy, bro. I’m bringing up old shit. Alright, so let’s talk about the book real quick. So we talked about relationships in a previous episode when when Herme had his man day, and balls are just all out. All Johnson all all 12 hours is freedom. Whoosh. But, but and then we kinda you know, we unpacked a few things and they’re good and bad and troubles in the relationship but but mainly, you know, what are the good things that we do to keep our relationships thriving? And I hope that that was, you know, and edifying episode, but then we transitioned to Glenn’s right, which took a kind of a structural systematic approach to building your relationships and making them successful and, and I guess not even making them successful, identifying who you should be with before you get into the relationship so that you are set up for the highest probability of success right? It’s about the matchmaking and making sure that you know, you are equally yoked the

Herman 4:13
definition is basically aligning who you qualify for guess which Thank you just doesn’t sound good.

Tim 4:20
It does it but I don’t have a problem with that. Because I when I think about my marriage and how it started I sold Iman on me be coming in a high value man. Right without using said term. Yeah. And so I feel like it was me pitching. Maybe as I’m reflecting your time here. The future’s bright with me. I may be a fuck boy right now. Transitioning into a male dog are a man, hot boy. But by the end of this journey, I’m gonna be a high value, man. But when are you gonna be ready for that?

Travis 5:07
But that’s not unnatural. Because anytime you go into these situations and you meet people, you’re truly meeting their representative. Now, is it gonna be a man who’s gonna say that I’m gonna build an international school one day? Now? That’s kind of a lofty? That’s a lot. Yeah, like, pity the fool. The follow that was taken to the inquiries, man, there’s no competitive bids for that. But I think that when you’re talking about, you know, just the approach game, yeah, you’re meeting somebody’s representative. And I think the one thing Glen does do is in a urban Hip Hop way, which I am attracted to, he is able to kind of put you into a category or a box, based on certain attributes. Now, whether the interpretation of that is one thing we’ll we’ll unpack but, yeah, once you qualify, it’s the

Herman 6:01
assumptions, right? Like, it’s an assumption that women want a certain outcome. Right? Like, that’s a pretty big assumption that all high value women, relationships aren’t working for certain things. Sure, there’s probably some truth to that. But at the end of it, when it pulls all together, what you’re looking at is all these women that want a high value, man, and the numbers just don’t align for any. Any, that’s decent amount of relationships that are going to be easy. I

Travis 6:35
don’t that’s, I think it’s a fact that women want a certain outcome. It’s and I don’t think it’s necessarily affected. Everybody wants a high value, man. I think the one thing that happens when you read the book, when you’re reading it, is you assume that everybody wants the best of the best. But there is a point in time based on how life goes and how life flows, where you might just want one of these different right but Mr. Right now or are you just want a man, you just want somebody who can provide stability?

Tim 7:08
Do you have a job? You have a penis?

Travis 7:10
I mean, if you’re a network, if you’re in the ATL, and it’s 12 to one down there and you’re struggling, you know, you might just say Hey, brother, I’m glad you you worked for Amazon and got them benefits man. Like,

Tim 7:23
that’s perfectly good enough.

Travis 7:25
I’m not gonna find that Morris Chestnut brother. You know that we saw an all night

Herman 7:31
movie chestnut brother like you’re talking about a long time you’re talking about 200 I gotta

Tim 7:35
be the more the chestnut. Why are we talking about Boris Kojo? We are the lifeskills

Travis 7:42
fellas, because Boris culture was always losing in the movie.

Tim 7:48
He’s always gonna be the villain.

Travis 7:52
Boris is the one answering the questions to come play a game.

Herman 7:56
You want to talk more about being light skinned man? Do you feel slighted? Absolutely. How? Because look at all the spaces you fit into.

Tim 8:06
See ya assume Hollywood because

Herman 8:08
Hollywood did play the lucidly Summit. Like they’re a lot like you know, he’s not that bad. Not that dark. correlate.

Tim 8:16
I can’t say like, so it’s funny that white people know I’m black. But black people and Latinos don’t know, I’m black. They’re the only people that asked me. So what are you?

Travis 8:26
What do you need the community to be Dominican?

Herman 8:29
Yeah, you’re a lot of things. Well, I

Tim 8:30
think it’s rude. I think it’s rude. I am light skinned today. Because I have Indian in my family. We got good hair. Remember those days? Yeah, do no, you don’t?

Herman 8:44
Oh, that’s hurtful.

Tim 8:49
All right, so. So your issue with Herman, your issue with the book is it starts out with the premise of basically, what you qualify for which I get it, I get it. But I think also we kind of talked about that. Other issues that you’ve identified are the the two roles that he talked about right leader in Server service, yeah, leader and helper. But on page nine, very early in the book, when a man signs up to be a husband, in most instances, he should know that his job is not to be served, but to serve. His duty as a husband is to encircle the fam the entire family, to protect it. People are getting married because they want a wedding and honeymoon and ultimately a partnership. They don’t understand the responsibility and duty related to marriage. Let’s talk about that. Because I don’t think because in that passage, he doesn’t really focus on this servant versus leadership role. They’re both servants in their own different way. Right. And I highlighted that but really didn’t revisit that line until now. So it makes me think that it’s more of like a frame of mind. Right? Like, understand the role that needs to be played in this relationship to make everything work, the household, the work life, the kids,

Herman 10:16
etc. And I guess maybe my issue is that I’m like, that’s not a thing that can really be boxed in, because that is going to ebb. And that is something that is extremely dynamic, right? Like, I agree. So I’m like, how do you box that in? And what you got to start somewhere? Right? Well, my guess my thing is this book should be 1000 pages long. It really should, because it is that complex. And like you cannot simplify the relationship ecosystem down into something like this in a way.

Tim 10:41
It’s funny you say that? I

Travis 10:42
think you can.

Tim 10:43
Well, so let’s touch on that real quick. Because he mentioned he had a ton of content, right, got edited out, and then they chopped it into three books. So I was very surprised that the book is only 52 pages, right? Which you say it was a pamphlet, so rubra. But it kind of feels like that. I am curious, from a publishing standpoint, why that was the marketable decision, instead of making one media piece of content that is self sustaining, but I get it short attention spans. I mean, is it? Is this a trend for books?

Herman 11:20
I don’t know. That are 400 pages, right? Like if

Tim 11:24
you’re a nerd? Yeah. Man a bookworm. You’re a bookworm.

Herman 11:28
I like information. And I have a lot of questions. And when I see something like this, I have a lot of questions, I see a lot of things that don’t make sense, like the entire pages for your entire introductory premise is not based in fact, or not based on the outcomes that we know have happened. And that’s just one piece that is not actually a part of the rest of the book. But it has to do with the relationships. And even that piece is like slimmed down, like there’s way more complexity, the dynamics of talking about your first issue, because that was the first issue with personally was that the reason that these things start has to do with like, I think it was something about single fathers. And so I looked at the statistics, I don’t have them pulled up now. But I’m like those numbers. I don’t necessarily think correlate to certain things in relationships, or certain inability. So if

Tim 12:17
you’re talking to Herman speak right now, okay. People can’t follow him is too high level, dig deep,

Herman 12:22
dig deep, give examples, an example of a kid that grows up without a father that might have something in there that won’t allow him to be in certain places or like that is a problem with the family unit. And, you know, if the goal is to successful family units, which it should be Yeah, I don’t think that that always goes back to single fathers. And so the other thing that I’ve liked one of my first questions was, Who is this book for? Because I’m when you’re talking about from a black perspective, or from a white perspective, all people? Yeah. Because,

Tim 12:57
yeah, and and so I know you did have a problem with that. But he does not identify race and as

Travis 13:02
bright. And he said that it’s for every male and it’s for

Tim 13:07
male and female relationships. Right? So not everyone heterosexual

Herman 13:12
Yes. And I take my responsibility in how I read this book, because I’m a black person. So I’ve read it like it was speaking to black people. But the data didn’t speak to some of that part that made sense to me.

Tim 13:22
Yeah, I think, yeah, I think I think that was on you. And you wanted you wanted more of that. So that you could identify better with the book,

Herman 13:34
because I was like, the numbers of black men, like if it was for black people, right? In Black relationships, the number of black men that make over $250,000 is a very small pool. Like, but that’s, that’s what that is. 1100 people,

Travis 13:49
that’s intentional. And that’s purpose. That’s the elite of the elite. And, you know, it’s actually he pulls

Herman 13:55
out like super high net, like he’s talking about ballplayers and right, like, you’re talking about licensed professionals. And even that you could be an attorney working as an attorney for years and now make 250,000. Doctor, what?

Travis 14:08
Yeah, very,

Herman 14:09
I’m saying like attorney started 60 grand, but I

Travis 14:11
do think that that is, there is a, there has to be a category for those who are lead because those who make $250,000 are not going to necessarily align in totality with someone who brings in 80.

Tim 14:26
Yes, yeah, you’re absolutely right. Yes. It’s called the 1%. For reason reason. Yeah. So a book will not so it’s the book is speaking to the that, you know, but percentage small percentage, it’s not gonna be

Travis 14:39
so you know, high value, man. There’s a lot of Kevin Samuels in this what I didn’t get into so and Kevin Samuels, rest in peace, you know, very known for using the term high value man and telling ladies what it takes to attract a high value man, and then discouraging women who want a high value band but don’t present themselves as a high value woman. So I think when we hear some of that, and knowing how much that we’ve seen, Kevin Samuels, it makes it seem as if you’re a high value, man, that’s your only option for being valuable period. Because no value is not mentioned anywhere in the other different categories a person. But I think that just if you look at it, and if your mind is open to looking at it, which I’m not saying mine was initially. But if your mind is open to looking at it, it’s just categorization. And there’s nothing wrong with being in any place, as long as you’re comfortable in your skin in that place. Well, and that was what I didn’t deduct when I read it. But I did the duck when he said it. And so that’s when I would say, okay, that’s where Glenn was able to kind of clarify there is like, these are just the categories. This is just, you know, your these traits. This is where I label you, and you go from there. But I just two cents.

Herman 16:03
But I think that when we ended her, I know, for me, I was like, well, the onus of giving up everything is on the woman. So while a man is on his pathway to getting to that 250 Number. There could be a woman alongside there could be a woman that you meet, possibly, if she fits or qualifying for that guy, she has built out her own

Travis 16:25
ecosystem, that’s what caused the most heat at my crib, right was because it’s she’s got to give all that up that she built upon to be a helper upon interpretation of the book, it’s that the man is the alpha. And a woman is beta in the relationship at all times. That’s the that was the original interpretation. So it’s like it came across, it came across that way, because you know, high value is this, this and this, but a high value woman almost has a negative connotation to it. Yeah,

Herman 16:51
like, that was crazy to me, because I it but that’s not

Travis 16:55
but once again, that’s I grant you, I think I know what you’re about to say. And that is your interpretation. It’s not necessarily what he’s saying, right?

Herman 17:03
And that’s the thing. So I’m like, but that is what you are, that’s how you write to be controversial, but I’m like, Just lay it out. Like who is for who? How does that look? Is this going to be successful? And are there enough people for successful relationships? So well,

Travis 17:15
So Tim, as we kind of talk a little bit about the different types of people for their listener? Can you kind of recap those different types of men? Real quick?

Tim 17:26
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you can also, you know, just go to our YouTube. Oh, yeah.

Travis 17:33
We’ve got some videos. Yes, a great time to play. We’re on YouTube. So

Tim 17:37
we are live on YouTube, y’all. live and in color. Black in the middle podcast, search that. Don’t forget to subscribe, please, we gotta get 1000 subscribers. So then we can start monetizing this thing. And then we can you know, quit our day jobs.

Travis 17:52
Well, most importantly, you get a chance to see how the sausage is made.

Tim 18:00
So well, actually, before I do that, I wanted to I wanted to read a passage. And I didn’t get this far. In the book before we had the interview, but I just randomly flip to a page. And of course, I just lost it. But he talks about the high value woman. And we just read this paragraph although have although a high value woman does not have to have many degrees. She has some education, to know how to operate and move within her man spaces. She knows how to cook clean, and he’s not stressed. I know her and keep going and is not stressed by a crying baby. She doesn’t walk out of the house without polish on her fingernails and toes she leans into her femininity. I have too many enemies. But it’s not flashy or scantily clad, most high value women work and make good money. But their career does not define them that their end goal is a thriving family with at least two and a half kids and a respected man in the community.

Travis 19:05
That is your trigger. That’s your trigger. Because the high value woman is doesn’t care about a career in is purely relationship focus and a servant magnitude. It’s not what I just read. It’s 100% what

Tim 19:22
feels right what I just read. That was that was 70% of what I just read. The last 30% was most high value women work and make good money but their career does not define them. Right. So I know Glenn and his his wife, he is a lawyer. Okay. She is high value. But I also know that that they that just because the the woman in the relationship is supposed to be the helper doesn’t mean she can’t have a career right? I look at my relationship. Wi Fi is the she’s the helper and most of the time But, but she has a great career but her but it does not define her it is her brand. But what defines her is her household. Right? And how she keeps it, and her kids. And, and, and, and and her relationship with me. That’s what defines her, she would leave that career in a heartbeat to support the family unit. So that’s what I think is important to a high value woman, right is to know what is most important. And I think that’s important to keep the male in check, but

Herman 20:32
you can keep a male in check, but a man should keep himself in check.

Tim 20:37
Okay, well, you just don’t twist my words like that using the book. I met a high value man,

Herman 20:42
a high value, man, specifically word. I look but here’s the thing, if you have too high value people who are both leaders, right, like the helper could be an employee. So why wouldn’t it work with two people going down their pathway as being successful making all this money may have money to hire help to see you’re at you’re adding circumstances to it. But that’s real life. Like that’s the thing that’s frustrating, like these the passes

Tim 21:08
said, has a good job has a career, but it’s not the focus not defined by it. So you’re right, you’re half right. Let me put this out here. So wifey and I, we had a long road trip to St. Louis yesterday and a u haul it only go 75 miles per hour. So it took us a very long time. There and Back one day, we talked about a lot of shit. And what we talked about was, you know, trying to visualize what our life looks like next year, the year after that. Maybe like three years out, not too far. And the goal is to double our our take home. Right? So if we double our take home, we become high value men and women. And I asked her because we’re you know, she is like I said she’s not defined by her career. But it drives her by I asked her Can you visualize what your life would look like? With double the take home? Right? So let’s say we take 100 grand right now, double that $200,000. So right now we’re paying our bills, got some revolving debt, got some school debt, whatever the cars are paid off, got some investments. Most of them have tanked, but diversify with some good shit. What will we do with that money? We talked about what we will do with our money is to, to your point, pay for the things that cause us stress, outsource, delegate, that means housekeeping, that means Nene that means you know, that means services, you know, more contractors coming into my house in and out. So I gotta do shit, right? pain points that like that we’re can replace our time because we can’t replace our time, right, you can’t get more of it. But if we can get more of time together and doing things that add value to our net worth, or add value to our kids or to our family unit, and that’s where we’re going to spend that money. And so I think that, you know, as we both become these high value man and woman couple, we’ll still have our leader, helper shift, right, depending on what the fuck is going on in the day, her busy season is, you know, December through March, mine is shit, mine is actually similar, but mine goes longer. And then she has downtime. So as we as we go through these ups and downs and available time and resources, like we switch leader versus helper. But if we can outsource a lot of this helper stuff, then that will allow us to do more on the leadership side of maybe business. But that’s not where we would invest our time we would invest it in family experiences, travel, you know, shit that just, you know, our goal is to give kids give our kids what we don’t have. Yeah,

Travis 24:20
so many things to unpack there. One thing I would say is that one, your interpretation of leader and helper is different than how you initially started that and how the book reads and what you read. The book doesn’t allow for fluidity in that it does send you a it’s that and actually I think it actually directly says it that the man is the leader and the woman is the helper which is exactly how you came out the gates. I’ll be it was you went through and where’s the frog articulated yourself. You You gave what I would believe is a more realistic example of the application of the book is that it is a fluid process and in order For you to be successful, the leader in the helper role is going to be fluid, which also kind of goes back to his premise of what I felt like he was trying to convey, which is, you can’t be lopsided when the serving comes. And that’s the leader. And helper fluidity is about the fluidity of serving one another. And we talked about it a little bit in this podcast, but you can’t be in a position where it feels like one person is always serving, and the other one is always receiving. Because that is there’s going to be an expiration date on them. So and but you know, if there’s fluidity in that, and you understand that this is my time to shine, or this is my day to shine, because it’s really coming down to micro, like, it’s really not, it’s sometimes it’s a period, maybe, depending on circumstances, but like, in Tim’s case, and most people’s lives, this is, you know, a day to day thing, today, I need to be I need to be supported. And tomorrow, I support you.

Herman 25:59
Or like the, like a longer initiative, like I’m going back to school to get an MBA, and when I come out of that ample, right, I’m gonna I’m gonna make this kind of money. So you’re gonna have to lead, but it’s like that person is to, you know, based off the books premise that might not work out in that three years, or however long that MBA program where this person might not be bringing in the money to be whatever, and you just have to trust that. I mean, that’s a pretty big

Tim 26:26
thing. It’s an interesting situation, because I’m really stuck on who’s the helper and who’s the leader. The

Herman 26:31
other last thing I didn’t get to say was I’m like, where does this leave room for a power couple? Because I think the power couples are what a lot of people strive to be citizen power. But yes,

Tim 26:42
you’re right. One of the high value men and high value women is a power cut, but

Herman 26:45
the high value woman has still get she can have her career was she can have her career. But the focus on the on the beginning of the book is still based around the leader, helper, primarily, man is the leader, and when is the helper, and you’re putting a lot more on a woman to be a leader and a helper when a man just has to more or less be like the protector?

Travis 27:08
Yeah. And that’s, that’s where from having this discussion at the crib with female like this is that was the trigger the trigger is is that, you know, no matter what I said,

Tim 27:21
I like he had his head established that he’s in a headless heterosexual relationship with a female.

Travis 27:29
So this, this is applicable, but that’s where it’s like, you know, no matter what I send to you, I’m always, I’m always Scottie Pippen. I’m always Robin, like, because the book reads as if, like, you know, the man is the more dominant figure. And I honestly think that it is there’s an interpretation piece to it. But I agree with actually what you said, towards when you started dissecting it, that in order for relationship to be fruitful, there has to be fluidity in the roles of who is max up who’s top dog and who’s not who’s leading, who’s helping, who is supporting and the in the supporter, and going from there, so.

Tim 28:11
And I appreciate that. And I totally agree, and I think it’s I think it’s tough, like this book takes a it takes a contemporary approach to a traditional model. That is true, right, 100%. And it, I think it’s important that we need to keep in mind that there are two other parts to this, right, we don’t have the full story. So this is step one, to understanding the framework. And then the next book will help you apply, etc, etc. So I’m excited to read those. But I also think it’s key that no, like, we’re just talking from our perspectives. And you know, maybe the previous people, we’ve been in relationships with every woman and every man, every woman is not built to be a leader. Every man is not built to be a leader. Some people are 1,000% content at being Albert. Wright was fun. There’s no and I and I think I think the framework really comes because it’s traditionally comes from history. It’s based on historical precedents. And the the, what did he say the natural order of things, right? So he even talked about like, in nature, this happens in nature, and I know praying mantis bites the man’s head off after she gets a dick. I get it.

Herman 29:37
I never heard of a queen bee.

Tim 29:38
I get it, I get it. They’re always only helpers. There will always be outliers, outliers. But, you know, when you’re when you’re when you’re writing a book for the masses, you know, for the, you know, the lowest common denominator, like you gotta you

Herman 29:51
gotta make generalized. So that’s another thing. I’m like, okay, Simon would never

Tim 29:55
be able to write a book because he’d have to, he’d have to play for every single new Was his situation he could

Travis 30:04
write a book. But that editor would be like, we’re on our fifth editor,

Tim 30:09
it’d be like our first season of the podcast, I’m just gonna publish this shit.

Herman 30:14
But my thing is like, okay, so like his love history, history is great historical context when it comes to relationship, actually I don’t think is I mean, there are primary things like man woman relationships, but how that worked in different cultures is kind of all over the place. However, I just think it would have been

Tim 30:30
really all over the place. I mean, it’s the man leaves the household, the woman is out there in every freaking religion and culture across the

Herman 30:38
that. We’ll come back to that. But I just wanted to read Yes, majority. But did those lead to healthy outcomes in relationships? Now, every

Tim 30:48
time I say that,

Herman 30:52
this is from the book, I know, these words may be triggering for some, and you may want to throw this book in my head. But let’s look at the definitions of each of them before we discuss how they relate to relationships in which the husband is to be the leader and the woman the helper stop.

Travis 31:06
When you say at the very beginning, that you’re going to want to throw this book at my head. Yeah, I’m already I’m coming in gloves up

Herman 31:14
another seat. In other words, a leader understands their role. And their function is to support of an entire people from the community to city, state or country, a leader has a selfless motive when identifying themselves as a leader, but selfless, selfless, but I’m like, first of all, there’s a whole bunch of different types of leadership styles. And if you were to go back 30 years, the leadership styles would not be conducive to healthy relationships. 30 years, but today, today, the dynamics have changed men’s roles, men’s incomes, like so this book kind of says to me

Tim 31:47
that the new shit ain’t working as well, or

Herman 31:49
the new Schindler’s List a whole circumstance of people that are not going to have successful outcomes, because you do not have enough men being that successful. Yes.

Tim 31:58
You’re absolutely right. And I think Glenn would agree.

Herman 32:01
And so which is why he built this selection

Tim 32:03
framework, is

Herman 32:04
it good to just know that your relationship is probably not going to work out under any circumstance because

Tim 32:09
you’re because you’re you’re you’re shooting out of your league, you’re you’re not batting up, whatever the fuck, and now it’s

Travis 32:17
out of their league. This is you should shoot out. See, this is where

Tim 32:20
salutely And then you hit that one shot and boom, you got it. Congratulations. But you were on an unhappy lazy, low value man or at Harmon wafer. This

Travis 32:29
is where I this is where I thought that you were negative. And and that episode, and I don’t truly understand it. My bad for being negative? Well, no,

Tim 32:38
I mean, really apologizing?

Herman 32:41
I mean, that from the bottom of my nuts. Sure.

Travis 32:44
So in that, like, I don’t necessarily think that it doesn’t mean that your relationships not going to work. I just think it gives clarification to where you are. So you have to understand, you know, where you want to be, I think there was there’s a point in time where people are on different planes. And if you know I’m in a certain category here doesn’t mean that that’s what it’s gonna be. But if I understand where I’m at, or I understand where she’s at, or she understands where I’m at, then I can start putting those preventative measures in play, or I can start making the right statements, conversations, commitments to get where I want to be, but in the episode, man, everything was like, did you really end up getting cheated on and I was like, damn, but that’s like, how do we get here

Herman 33:28
but that came about because what you’re saying what I interpreted as women want a high value, man, that pool is extremely small. So what women are going to do is a pool of high value men is very small, but according

Tim 33:44
I you know, you’ve been looking for one

Herman 33:47
but bro, you’re talking about millions of women going after this. So I’m like then most women are going to have to settle for what isn’t that

Tim 33:55
leaving? No, no, you’re looking at it over on Brett. What I didn’t say Lynn is saying is all you girls and hot girls and city girls and women looking for high value men check yourself yeah, before you come out with this is what I need. Girl This is my list girl. So I’m saying your list. I get three bullet points. I get that right so he said in a framework. Get your shit together before you start. When you

Herman 34:29
get your stuff together. What I’m saying is a high value man might not be there at all. He’s not gonna be there. There’s not but

Tim 34:36
if but if a high value woman comes up to the plate, I gotta get a job. I’m ready to support you in your dreams and goals. I cook Come on.

Travis 34:46
Don’t be confused though. Come on. Don’t confuse it like high value. Men don’t necessarily always want high value women. Hell no.

Herman 34:52
100%

Tim 34:54
In most most of them don’t

Travis 34:56
know someone a girl

Tim 35:00
Most of you sitting here trying to slot I want to see the girl in Miami. So

Herman 35:06
whilst most cities,

Travis 35:08
I mean, there’s, it’s probably true changing, I know now, but they’re good. But uh, you’re talking about guys who make if there’s a lot of people, not a lot of people, if there’s people who can make 250,000 Sometimes you’ll see there was a stay at home, you know, you’ll see their wives, you know, take very modest occupations, or lifestyles that support the family and just purely cater to the things that can’t be done on a day to day person, day to day basis by the guy who’s driving a business or driving, you know, opportunities or whatever it may be so,

Tim 35:49
and I think that’s what he was trying to get to is like, there are roles to play, understand who you are, know who you are first, before you step into a role. And if you step into the if you know who you are, and you step into the right role, and you match yourself up with the right significant other chances of success are higher based on these connections are based on high value man and high value woman or city boy city girl, like whatever however those play, I think that’s I think that’s the point is just to give people the opportunity for more successful relationships,

Herman 36:29
more successful relationships, and then it’s like, okay, well, what’s, what does that lead to? Does that lead to successful marriages?

Travis 36:37
I think that’s where he wants to think

Herman 36:39
well, but okay,

Tim 36:40
I didn’t relationships. But I mean, let’s be honest, this is about marriage.

Herman 36:43
I know. And so when you look at what the marriage numbers are, if they’re working if they’re not working, I don’t think that if you were to reverse engineer how it didn’t work out, if they would all play back to misalignment in I think, absolutely they do. I mean, it would be misalignment in somewhere, but I’m like, at some point, you all grew together.

Travis 37:05
So no, but there’s just as quickly as you can grow together, you can grow hard.

Herman 37:09
Exactly. And I’m like, but you could also have two people that seem to be fitting these roles in there. I don’t know, to me, it just there’s some and there’s so many things, a lot of nuance and a lot of dynamics that can, but that’s

Travis 37:21
great. That’s what gives us 50 minutes of pot. But I think that when you’re talking about I think that 100% misalignment is what causes it, because there’s times in a relationship where you know, things happen, situations arise, sector. You got to be smart about

Tim 37:45
it. This one we need to soundboard

Travis 37:48
pleasure, but you know, like maybe financial hardships, you know, press upon different things, or, you know, just a different perspective. And especially like right now, this is a great time 40s You have kids that are

Tim 38:02
horrible time. Well, sorry, we’re not talking about my waistline.

Travis 38:06
But we we see a lot of people in their 30s and early 40s Call relationships quit because kids get to a point where they’re a little bit more sufficient. And the relationship is all you got left. And people want to do what they want to do. And so sometimes they may be high value at one point or they may be I forget what the second highest tier is. But then, you know, they want to act like an F boy in their 40s. And you see them do things, different things. Get back out there in the streets, you see them, you know, buying cars and being a happy hour buying

Tim 38:41
because he was a he was a helper to a high value woman and then he finally guy was like, Oh,

Travis 38:46
well they act like a caged animal who’s been locked up. Yeah. And they get out and they just on the prowl. And so you know, but they sometimes start doing stuff before they actually cut the cord.

Herman 38:59
I feel like I’ve seen and I don’t have my own numbers, but I’ve seen relationships where a guy was breadwinner, wife helping and that shit didn’t work out even though they were being a helper. They’re bringing in the income. So

Tim 39:14
you know, I mean, we’re humans, we’re always gonna fuck it up.

Herman 39:18
That is for sure. I just I don’t know man. I’m a person that I believe that you should shoot higher than whatever your thing is. And yes, you should be prepared to to make whatever sacrifices or do whatever you need to do to make relationship work. But I don’t think that you should prepare yourself for some shit not to work out just because you were uncovered that you maybe weren’t were that you weren’t.

Tim 39:43
Okay. Okay, okay. I got an idea. Okay, okay, let’s let’s make Herman internalize this shit about yourself and your status shoes.

Herman 39:55
Okay. First of all, whatever we’re about to say you don’t know anything. Then you don’t understand. So I could just say that for the rest of the episode, you don’t understand. You don’t understand

Tim 40:09
now, but put yourself in her shoes. Right? And I mean, your daughter’s 14. She’s

Herman 40:15
just telling me I don’t boyfriend. Bra. She’s Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Tim 40:18
She asked him out to the dance. Stop. What happened with that, bro? Oh, we didn’t talk about that. No, we haven’t talked about that.

Herman 40:24
I said, Look, this is a problem. She wants to go to dance with a dude that she’s never really first a whole thing. And I’m like, as a father, I’m like, if he says no, I will be pissed. But if he says yes.

Tim 40:40
Like, because, you know, he was like, she’s like, Daddy, I want to ask this boy to dance. And if he says no, I got a plan. He

Herman 40:47
says, No, I’m gonna create posters and shit and act like somebody else said yes, I’m like, wow. So she did throw it out there. He did say no, but I’m like, really? Yeah, I’m like, Honey,

Tim 40:57
what’s this? No,

Herman 40:59
we’re not gonna do that. We’re not gonna do all that but I’m gonna go to rockers. I don’t think so. He was gonna talk to him on a regular basis. This is out of the blue. He wasn’t expecting it. In like he’s a freshman. He don’t know anything about dances yet, like real. So calm down. It will happen.

Tim 41:15
Oh, she got a girl school how she made his boy.

Herman 41:18
Yeah, from sorry,

Tim 41:20
he would say um, before school. Okay. All right.

Herman 41:23
Well, man, I’m not gonna put all our business out there but

Travis 41:25
nor should you but I will just say listening. That is true. That is true. But listen, my

Tim 41:31
daddy’s podcast.

Herman 41:34
You don’t know anything. Anyway, she got the

Tim 41:37
AUC score. Driving. Subscribe, and we’re back. Alright, so

Travis 41:44
we’ll pull up on him.

Tim 41:47
I mean, I have not gotten Yeah, you chill.

Travis 41:51
Tim and I,

Tim 41:52
we got this. Perfect. Alright, so I mean, so how would you? How would you use this framework to prepare her for relationships? Let’s say she she says she’s often College, whatever. Going to FAMU talking about I met a boy.

Herman 42:12
Yeah, I have told her from a long time ago. Boy. I keep a route with him. I like no man is that hey, look, no man is worth a shit until they’re like 3035 Don’t get hung up on anybody because they don’t know what they’re doing. They’re only after one thing. And we don’t talk about what that is right now.

Tim 42:28
But and why do you say that? Why is that your advice? Because she

Herman 42:33
needs to focus on being successful herself and maybe going, Hey, look, I want her to be successful in her own right and not have to depend but I also don’t want her to have to give shit up for somebody that’s not

Tim 42:44
worth it. So you want you want her to become a high value woman. Right? And you want her to avoid boys city boys. Sure males men, and only fuck what high value men? Not necessarily because you don’t like the high value man because then she’s got to take a helper row. Honestly, what are you gonna tell her man? Honestly, my

Herman 43:05
my thing would be like, find somebody that you can build with. And that to me, that’s the weird thing. So like, whoever you find when you’re 1415 1622 23, nobody’s that high value shit. Yeah, he’s nobody. But if you guys are cohesively working towards something that’s building on teamwork. And you and I’ve been talking about teamwork, because you have a leader helper role that is still a team, not in the West.

Tim 43:27
That’s teamwork. That’s teamwork. That’s the definition of teamwork, actually. Knowing your role and putting your ego aside for the better of the team,

Herman 43:37
and that as long as you’re cool, you’re switching as long as you’re okay with role switching, but with the framework of leader, male helper female, that does not bode well for the later parts where it’s like, yeah, well,

Tim 43:51
alright. Let me let me ask you this question. Why? What offends you on the model? Isn’t that it’s not that I don’t want your toxic masculinity to come out.

Herman 44:08
Trigger mine

Tim 44:09
loaded, right. We all have it, but bang, bang, but like, you don’t want to you don’t want to don’t want to come off as toxic, right? and agree to the concept because you would have to say, women need to be helpers.

Herman 44:22
I would not say that.

Tim 44:25
That’s what I’m saying. Is that driving, you

Herman 44:27
know, because look, I think that for a relationship to work, and this is just I am not a relationship, anything I just know

Tim 44:37
just did qualified and nothing is gonna make

Herman 44:41
I think we’re all qualified is gonna be healthy and unhealthy relationships. And I feel like I’m in a healthy relationship and our relationship has gone a lot of different places. And we’re still here and I’m happy and so to me, that framework would not fit my model for what has been a success. I think it does. I don’t think it does. I was not high value.

Tim 45:02
You were on your way.

Travis 45:03
You’re never never been high value.

Herman 45:06
You ain’t high value. Maybe

Tim 45:09
you weren’t high valued as a receiver.

Travis 45:12
You were great value.

Tim 45:18
Always bring a Walmart

Herman 45:19
conversate Where’s best? Where’s great volume best choice?

Travis 45:25
Oh, man,

Herman 45:26
I so to your point, yeah, there’s certain things that I’m like, that makes sense. But in my mind, it just the numbers don’t align. And it to me, it is a sad book, it is a book that says most relationships, you don’t stand a chance

Tim 45:43
we get into the room, or we get into the room, you put that book

Herman 45:48
out here for me. And all this is leading to a pretty high divorce rate. So why bother? We already

Tim 45:55
there. already. We already there if anything is going to Lord the the divorce rate because bumfuck is going to realize they’re not ready for marriage.

Herman 46:06
So are we have we entered a place where people don’t want to help? Or people only want to lead or both people want to lead? And we have a generation of people that can’t lead or you know, they’re gonna grow into leaders? Like it just I don’t know, man, that’s a well, good

Travis 46:21
question. You know, I kind of think that there is some practicality that we have to apply to it. And and that is, if you have two people who are fighting for the chance to lead, then you’re not going to be successful, because leading is about having somebody follow like you lead. But did anybody follow? So if you’re in a position where you’re butting heads, because you’re both fighting for an agenda to prove who’s alpha or prove who’s at the top? Or who’s the key decision maker or who’s the key this that wherever else, then there is a potential propensity for you to have a failure in relationship because there is no give and take and there’s no sharing

Tim 47:03
like that, bro. I’m gonna, I’m gonna get all right. I am not a spoiler alert. Guy. I hate spoilers, hate him. My wife total opposite she she will flip to the back of the book and see how it ends before she decides that she’s going to read it or not. I’m the guy who will read I won’t read. I will watch a movie. Clip I will watch the movie of the book. And it will be horrible. 95 minutes, but in a 96 minute at the end. I’m just waiting for it to turn like I will watch the whole thing. miserable. I say that all this to say then I forgot my point.

Herman 47:50
Good because it was probably going to be some negative anyway. Yeah. I feel good about myself right now.

Tim 47:56
Well, what did you say to what what did you end with? You said something profound that sparked a really good idea that

Travis 48:02
left basically, like you can lead but if yes, people are fighting.

Tim 48:06
Thank you. Perfect. So I Oh, yeah. So the end of the book, I know what the last book is going to say. The secret hack, which I have already figured out and my relationship because it’s perfect.

Travis 48:22
Certainly looks like that on Instagram is my

Tim 48:27
mama house last night and my one of my cousin’s like second cousin, they’re removed. He was like, he’s like, so good. As I’m like, Man, I’m literally living the dream. He was like I know,

Herman 48:39
married every day. I’m like, That’s not mine. I never ate at home, you’ve only eaten lobster and steak every night. She looks magical.

Tim 48:49
But so you’re gonna make my point. So I figured it out. So if you know me, then you know that a lot of times, like I think one of my strengths in organizational behavior dynamics is that I, a lot of times I lead by far, I bleed by following. So, and I, I’ve said this, and I’ve practiced it my entire life. And I think it is one of the best ways to lead. You know, organizational theory, behavior, path goal theory, right? So you clear the path for your team, so they can become successful, right? And they can lead in their own way. That’s how I lead by following. And I think that is the hack, right? It’s not like a mind game like, Oh, I’m gonna make her feel like she’s a leader. But really is me because I’m following but I think it’s true. It’s true leadership characteristics that you have to put the team first. Teamwork makes a dream work. If you say the word teamwork in my house, you’ll there’ll be two toddlers that say makes it Drain work, because I’ve drilled into their head day after day, because I truly believe it. And so if you, you know, I think that’s why we can do the switching in our relationship is because we both understand that it’s not an ego thing to be a leader, like, sometimes it’s more stressful and miserable, to always have that pressure on you. Right. And so it’s sometimes it’s probably like a, you know, like a release, you know, to be able to follow and not have to make all the decisions, right. Yeah. Because that’s the thing. So, so yeah, I think that’s the interval,

Travis 50:40
which is the exact opposite of what I talked about, is when people are both following, right, and nobody’s making decisions. And you’re putting the whole team in jeopardy because nobody is being actionable. Yeah, which is as if you’re gonna fail the flip side of the coin, right to call out, but you highlight something that definitely sparks in my head, because sometimes in our positions, we are making decisions all day, we come home, that’s the last thing I want to think of. And

Tim 51:10
I want to make another decision. Yeah. And so, but you’re gonna have to the, you probably know the numbers of the facts, but like, there’s a certain there’s a finite amount of decisions that you can make, and like a 24 hour period of jobs. And

Herman 51:24
I think it’s like, people make 35,000 decisions a day. And I know that sounds like a lot, but I’m pretty sure that’s what the interweb says, I mean, people I mean, that’s like everything. And so taking a step forward.

Tim 51:36
So if you so if you use all your brainpower for all of these decisions, and then you have to make a real decision, like a hard one, and you’re tapped out or you don’t have someone else to pick up, you’re gonna make the wrong decision. And that could, that can ruin your relationship or ruin your family unit. And so, you know, I’m a true believer, you know, back to my mottos, everything in moderation, right, you can’t lead all the time, you can’t follow all the time. You got to have balance, you know, in in so, you know, I think that’s what we’ll get to. And then the second and third book is, yes, he came out the gates, because this is what we talked about before the pod, right? We were in pre production talking about, we middle black in the middle, we middle ground, how can you go viral and be crazy and, you know, be divisive? If you’re middle ground? Because that’s the safe? That’s the safe place? Right?

Herman 52:31
Yeah. But I mean, it’s not that safe. And most of the time, it’s not working out.

Tim 52:35
But I think that’s why he came out the gates hardcore. Yeah. And I think he will, you’ll slowly unpack the model. And you’ll start to understand, you know, the well. I won’t model everything behind it. Now.

Herman 52:50
It just Yes. There’s a lot of nuance with it. I just, I am interested in the next two books. Yeah, I

Tim 52:58
think lions straight. Amen.

Herman 53:00
I am. Like, clearly, I feel some type of way.

Tim 53:03
I just literally, first of all, Glenn, we had a whole episode that

Travis 53:10
episode, or Glenn is a champion, for coming on our podcast to begin with. It’s always cool to have people come in. It’s the first time we’ve ever had an author join. So I think that they’re the more we dissect the more we talk, the more intrigued that I am to see what happens and the evolution of this product. Because I’m with I’m with you, Herman. When I first read it, and I first was dissecting it, there’s things I’m like, ooh, these are triggers.

Herman 53:43
Did you go say, look, did you go home? And then tell your wife that’s

Tim 53:48
not what happened? Because I was like, I

Herman 53:49
went, Oh, look, helper.

Tim 53:51
What happened though, in his household?

Travis 53:53
Not tell. Read before I got to. Can you believe this?

Tim 53:58
He came hurt. He walked in the door and was like, let me tell you something.

Travis 54:02
But then like, I mean, I can see it though. And then I’m like, okay, these are triggers. But I think you’re sharing your perspective, but I’m looking at it like, what’s the deeper meaning? Like, what’s the deeper? Why don’t we try

Tim 54:14
to snap about his home?

Herman 54:16
He was like, Look, I see you’re having a really big emotions about this topic. Maybe we can sit down.

Travis 54:21
I’m not what I’m trying to do step performance.

Herman 54:27
He put her on a pill

Tim 54:32
What’s this? This is Eagle relationship, I will do one to

Travis 54:36
never wrong. But like, you know, I was trying to find the deeper meaning and what was going to but I think, you know, he’s gonna have books two and three, and hopefully we can unpack that as well. And I think I think there’ll be more discussion points off of it.

Tim 54:51
I love when Tebow puts on his closing voice for the podcast. He’s like, and he gets out of his position. Look

Herman 54:58
at his hands. Look Unlike a politician,

Travis 55:00
I’m the Mariano the click.

Tim 55:03
So that’s not the end. I want to know. I want to know what was said, when you walk through that door. And the book was read widely read the book and was put it out there.

Travis 55:16
Have you read this shit? No. Reading puts me to sleep. But I was able to muster up the energy to make it through and ya know, it’s there everything that we talked about

Tim 55:35
T bone is it I know, you’re gonna stop skirting, we can get this out if he feels uncomfortable. The bone is a he’s one half of a power couple. Okay, they both high value individuals, as far as I’m concerned don’t know either one of your income, but just from your character, your business focus your family minded. This, I would say y’all both are high value from

Herman 55:57
the waist holding his hands right now, too, that also speaks to high value. He’s like, obvious he’s literally making a T don’t change them now.

Tim 56:08
He’s like we all you

Herman 56:13
know, message that they’re gonna give.

Travis 56:15
But I would say that there is the big thing is that it reads very much. So one sided as if man here woman here, man place woman place. And so that’s what came out of it. And that was what we dissected.

Herman 56:30
Okay. And I think that my thing real quick is that I don’t think that that framework works with the trajectory of modern times, and what modern relationships are going to look like and all of the nuances of today.

Tim 56:42
I disagree. I mean, I maybe so I think so this is, I think the nuances of relationships, and modern day is gotten out of fucking control. The nuances, let’s keep it real 52 genders money that I’m not even talking about? Right? That’s modern day,

Herman 56:59
I’m not even touch, sir. Absurd.

Tim 57:01
Well, tell me if you want an absurd, okay, so. So this book is the basic to write man and woman have relationship. It’s not going to apply it to all the craziness going on.

Herman 57:15
That’s not what I’m talking about. But he does. He does mention that right? So what I’m saying

Tim 57:19
it’s so modern, and everything is something that was T boned us the worst of times

Herman 57:23
making increasingly more and more money with this book would frame is that they are also going to have to give up that that that upward trajectory that you are making as women in the workforce. And so this is a conversation in my mind about labor productivity. And what would that mean, if women who are high value have to give up something for these relationships that if 50% or 40% aren’t going to work? Okay.

Tim 57:46
I’m glad you brought that up. I thought we was closing part two My bad. I did 6419 65 the Great Society. Right. That was way yeah, that wouldn’t be Johnson did all the stuff welfare like so. So like, so yeah. So once you go ahead and Oh, shit, you’re ready to split that off the tie. So basically, basically, what happened was in the in 65, the whole bill passed or whatever that now we created Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, food stamps, all of these, you know, services, wraparound services for those who are underserved in the community, right. And we know that this is a very divisive topic between the red and the blue, the right and the left Dems and the Republicans etc, etc. Because one side don’t want to pay for other for the pope people shit. And the other side thinks everybody should be treated equally. That sounds like a very biased summation. Which side are you on? But but so I so where I’m where I’m going is right. So this was created. And what happened was the the the the outcome was women left the household fact, right here, except for

Herman 59:03
he’s saying that the outcome was more people on welfare single families, because like, that’s what it looked like. And I’d have to look at the book again, but I’m like, that’s where it was like, for these programs is kind of why we are today because now women can be on welfare, things like that single, well, basic households,

Tim 59:22
we families or people could get on welfare. Right. So. So women, if the if the household has other supplemental income coming in, then give me the book. You take it book,

Travis 59:38
I guess the premises is that there’s a man in a house you don’t need anything a man should be able to provide. So if a man’s not in the house, as long as you’re seeing 65 Then you can sign up for free government aid.

Herman 59:51
Something happened around 19 six so

Tim 59:53
that you can start to work for the household put your kids in daycare, right. So now the family unit is now At the focus, and I mean, there’s a whole bunch of storylines that can come that came out of this act.

Travis 1:00:07
So the big the big legislation in 1964, Civil Rights Act of 1964, which, which addresses discrimination based on race, religion, sexual? No, no, but it sets it up, right. So you have this legislation that comes out that talks about freeing people from discrimination, that giving great supposably so it can grant opportunities, but in 1965, it will comes out is something that supplements the household, then I think the ideology and this is my interpretation went around, just taking it all in is that if a man is in that house, the man should be able to get a job and provide and if a man is not in that house, then government aid is available for you.

Herman 1:00:57
Can I just read this because this frame is what I what set me off? Okay. Something happened around 1964, our new president announced the creation of one of the greatest social service programs in the history of the United States, the Great Society, the Great Society was a set of domestic programs, the United States launched by Democratic President Lyndon B. Johnson 1964 slash five. The main goal was the total elimination of poverty and racial injustice. This great initiative led to a substantial increase in government spending on domestic social programs programs that resulted from this effort. We’re National Endowment for the Arts and Humanities, public broadcasting and welfare, Medicare, Medicaid, privacy laws, education initiatives, Social Security, expansion, and the expansion of public housing grants, food stamps, programs, and unemployment insurance. As you can imagine, families began to lose value as more women chose to rely on social programs and less on the natural order. This order is that men provide women nest and children grow and develop some women women often selves in a precarious position where their desires expectations and outcomes do not align. And my thing is, that is horseshit. And that is actually Republican propaganda, which is fun to use propaganda, but that program reduced black poverty by more than 40% Over the past, like since 64. That was

Tim 1:02:14
the point of what program, but that’s awesome. No, exactly. So

Herman 1:02:17
from that standpoint, less black people and more black people are out of poverty aren’t in social welfare programs. But again, if I read,

Tim 1:02:28
but somebody’s still fucked up the family unit, though, like just to be real, right?

Herman 1:02:33
Like, did it if more people are actually getting jobs and more people don’t have to rely or live in poverty? Or maybe it did make things more complex, because you have people you have more, and this is black people, but he’s talking about everybody. So the one thing I will say is that that legislation helped literally zero white people. The white people statistics of poverty have roughly remained the same. hovering around five to 7%. For black people went down from 40 to 18. So maybe, yes, less black people in poverty. But maybe his point is more black people in poverty, you guys are all in the same level, just be low value people together.

Travis 1:03:11
Well, that’s because there was discriminatory practices, right.

Herman 1:03:13
So let’s leave those. Now. Obviously, I’m choking, like, but to my point, I’m like, what does that have to do with anything because in me, this actually created an opportunity for more black people to be in more different classes and grow and that’s what we see the middle class growing and more brown people living in the suburbs. And

Travis 1:03:32
that’s not a 60 strays me what page was that?

Unknown Speaker 1:03:37
It was like You remember,

Herman 1:03:39
it’s an intro or because?

Tim 1:03:43
So I’m asking because you reading that? I mean, I do not disagree with Glenn’s view on that. And I believe he is Republican, which is fine. With that party, I know his views a lot of his views do and over time, as I’ve started to adult, more and more, I find that I have a lot of conservative views on things. But sidebar, holy shit. All that happened at once. I mean, could you imagine passing something like that in today’s day and age, like all those programs to help poor people like that would be shut down before it goes to the Yeah, some can’t help

Herman 1:04:30
it secretary for something that helped black people advance and get out of poverty. I think it’s odd that you frame that as this is what women chose to rely on, rather than the natural order. That just doesn’t make sense to me.

Tim 1:04:46
It why not? They’re less relying on these handouts quote, unquote, but instead of following the natural order of things, but that’s

Herman 1:04:59
what I’m Saying that, which would have been a great number in 1965 66. But it has gone down, trim, it’s the line has gone down the most those programs did help get a tremendous amount of people out of poverty. That’s great.

Travis 1:05:13
What I find to be really crazy sidebar, I guess on this a little bit, too, is that Lyndon B Johnson was forced into action due to the assassination of John F. Kennedy. And so him being kind of pushed in he is super actionable with some heavy hidden legislation, you know, for a man who was thrown into the fire. Now, granted, he wanted to win in his reelection, and I believe 65.

Tim 1:05:36
That’s interesting. But yeah, he killed one guy, because he was too Pro, and then that, and then another one,

Travis 1:05:44
with a lot of, you know, heavy legislation.

Tim 1:05:47
That is interesting. Yeah, very interesting. So

Herman 1:05:48
my thing is, I’m like, Sure, there’s lots of people on welfare, but it’s gotten down tremendously, except for the rise and actual population. So that, to me, that did not affect like, people like to tout social programs as affecting, like the family unit, and to a certain extent, sure, they do. But if you look at the, like, actual numbers, it’s not a higher percentage, it’s a much lower percentage, some more people aren’t using those programs, or they actually did what they were supposed to, which is get people on a trajectory to get out of poverty. And

Tim 1:06:22
yeah, well, I don’t disagree with a lot of what you said her. But I also don’t agree a lot of what you say. But I think as we close this out the middle Oh, nine side taken. You know, so I just, you know, I pulled up the book, and the last page, last couple of pages. And just wanted to read a few things. So, you know, just as there are differences between the types of men and the types of women, they qualify for women, ask yourselves, what type of woman are you? And what type of man do you qualify to qualify for? And I know that’s such a jarring thing to say. But it’s such a realistic thing to say, it’s like, bro, reflect. Seriously, look at yourself. Oh, and analyze. Because a lot of us live in la la land. We think our shit don’t stink. We’re the greatest of all time. And it’s so not true. But to your point, you gotta be 35. Yeah, they’re not talking to 33. Yeah, right. But so while money is a major factor in determining men’s positional relationships, a woman’s value is determined by her willingness and ability to support his purpose. Ultimately, she will reap the benefits of his money, power and influence that will in turn create opportunities for her to demonstrate and exude her femininity. There’s that word again. And inspiration. So what he’s saying is not wrong. It’s not wrong. It’s just not for everybody. I think you can say that about everybody. Yeah.

Herman 1:08:18
Yeah. I mean, I

Tim 1:08:21
can we agree that it’s not wrong. It’s just a perspective

Herman 1:08:25
it because I will agree that it is a perspective.

Travis 1:08:30
And I think he will agree to disagree.

Tim 1:08:33
Well, I disagree to agree.

Herman 1:08:38
And it is quite a perspective. Is it a healthy perspective? I don’t know. Is it an as a perspective that produces outcomes? I don’t know what’s right. Like if this is

Tim 1:08:49
stay tuned for number two coming out hitting the shelves. Next year? Yeah.

Herman 1:08:56
I’ll be argumentative than two.

Tim 1:09:00
All right. Don’t forget to Subscribe on YouTube. We’re on YouTube, y’all. Check it out. We got YouTube shorts, they get 1000s of views. I’m literally not kidding right now. And then we got some videos they’re getting views our views so please go to the YouTube channel. And like it subscribe and share it. Like a little plaque in the middle podcast like in the middle podcast, Instagram underscore black in the middle. Tick tock underscore black in the middle

Herman 1:09:36
what you don’t know where we are just looking at black in the middle. Look at some black guys and then it’s black and white. Follow that.

Tim 1:09:43
And wife, he’s texting me. I gotta go.

Herman 1:09:46
You help her

Tim 1:09:49
up. That would be the leader right now because she’s leading us home. And that’s why it’s flu All right, as it pays

Herman 1:10:04
thanks for your Listen, don’t forget to subscribe to this podcast. Just start with don’t forget to subscribe. Right? Ready? Are you ready for me to go? Go now? Don’t forget to don’t forget to subscribe to this podcast on Apple podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, or whatever random app or website you’re listening on. Also, be sure to follow us on Instagram, underscore black in the middle

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